Discussion:
Mister for small mill
(too old to reply)
Gene Heskett
2009-11-15 16:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Greetings all;

I find that I can get brass tubing in pretty small sizes, like 1/16" OD,
usually sized to be a slip fit in the next larger size, so this makes it easy
to solder up a small nozzle, with the far end built up to 1/4" for attaching
the air supply.

Now, I'm wondering if there is a standard formula that would tell me the
exact geometry it would take to make a 2 tube, one blowing across the end of
the other with air, and the second pulling from a nearby quart of cutting
oil, in the same manner as the old hand pumped Hudson sprayers, to add a
slight mist of cutting oil to the air blowing on the mill? Angles, center
separations etc? I think I can just solder the tubing(s) to another small
piece of sheet brass to maintain the alignment.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

Don't remember what you can infer.
-- Harry Tennant
Leslie Newell
2009-11-15 17:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Here is how I did it. I took a short piece of brass bar and drilled most
of the way through with a drill slightly bigger than the smallest tube I
could easily obtain. This creates the air jet. I then drilled the rest
of the way with a drill the same size as the tube. Next I drilled
diagonally in from the back to allow air to pass around the oil pipe to
the air jet. The small tube is pushed right through and soldered in
place. It projects about 1mm past the end of the jet. The whole lot is
then pressed into the plastic nozzle on one of those cheap loc-line
hoses. A small plastic pipe runs from the small tube in the jet, down
the loc-line and out of a made-up block at the bottom. It sounds more
complicated than it is.

I found the trick is to make sure the pipe down the middle projects past
the end of the air nozzle. This way you get a stream of fine droplets in
a cylinder of fast moving air. If the oil pipe is flush with the air
outlet you get a fine mist that hangs in the air rather than going on
the work.

Note that I use a pressurized oil feed as this setup doesn't generate
much vacuum. The pressurized oil is supplied with one of those cheap
combined air regulator/filter and oiler units on eBay like item
#250528218868. I took out the air filter bits and added a pipe fitting
on the bottom of the water trap. The water trap now becomes the oil
reservoir. The reservoir is only small but it lasts quite a long time as
you only need a trace of oil.

It pays to use oil designed for misters as it is less toxic than the
usual cutting oils. The stuff I use is vegetable oil based and a gallon
was damn expensive. However it will last many years.

Les



I used the smallest tube I could find.
Post by Gene Heskett
Greetings all;
I find that I can get brass tubing in pretty small sizes, like 1/16" OD,
usually sized to be a slip fit in the next larger size, so this makes it easy
to solder up a small nozzle, with the far end built up to 1/4" for attaching
the air supply.
Now, I'm wondering if there is a standard formula that would tell me the
exact geometry it would take to make a 2 tube, one blowing across the end of
the other with air, and the second pulling from a nearby quart of cutting
oil, in the same manner as the old hand pumped Hudson sprayers, to add a
slight mist of cutting oil to the air blowing on the mill? Angles, center
separations etc? I think I can just solder the tubing(s) to another small
piece of sheet brass to maintain the alignment.
Roland Jollivet
2009-11-15 18:57:07 UTC
Permalink
If it's organic, it's bound to be Castor oil, an excellent lubricant.
Because it gums up over time, you could just let it go to drain.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0001P?I=LXS627&P=8

Roland
Post by Leslie Newell
Here is how I did it. I took a short piece of brass bar and drilled most
of the way through with a drill slightly bigger than the smallest tube I
could easily obtain. This creates the air jet. I then drilled the rest
of the way with a drill the same size as the tube. Next I drilled
diagonally in from the back to allow air to pass around the oil pipe to
the air jet. The small tube is pushed right through and soldered in
place. It projects about 1mm past the end of the jet. The whole lot is
then pressed into the plastic nozzle on one of those cheap loc-line
hoses. A small plastic pipe runs from the small tube in the jet, down
the loc-line and out of a made-up block at the bottom. It sounds more
complicated than it is.
I found the trick is to make sure the pipe down the middle projects past
the end of the air nozzle. This way you get a stream of fine droplets in
a cylinder of fast moving air. If the oil pipe is flush with the air
outlet you get a fine mist that hangs in the air rather than going on
the work.
Note that I use a pressurized oil feed as this setup doesn't generate
much vacuum. The pressurized oil is supplied with one of those cheap
combined air regulator/filter and oiler units on eBay like item
#250528218868. I took out the air filter bits and added a pipe fitting
on the bottom of the water trap. The water trap now becomes the oil
reservoir. The reservoir is only small but it lasts quite a long time as
you only need a trace of oil.
It pays to use oil designed for misters as it is less toxic than the
usual cutting oils. The stuff I use is vegetable oil based and a gallon
was damn expensive. However it will last many years.
Les
I used the smallest tube I could find.
Post by Gene Heskett
Greetings all;
I find that I can get brass tubing in pretty small sizes, like 1/16" OD,
usually sized to be a slip fit in the next larger size, so this makes it
easy
Post by Gene Heskett
to solder up a small nozzle, with the far end built up to 1/4" for
attaching
Post by Gene Heskett
the air supply.
Now, I'm wondering if there is a standard formula that would tell me the
exact geometry it would take to make a 2 tube, one blowing across the end
of
Post by Gene Heskett
the other with air, and the second pulling from a nearby quart of cutting
oil, in the same manner as the old hand pumped Hudson sprayers, to add a
slight mist of cutting oil to the air blowing on the mill? Angles,
center
Post by Gene Heskett
separations etc? I think I can just solder the tubing(s) to another
small
Post by Gene Heskett
piece of sheet brass to maintain the alignment.
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dave
2009-11-15 19:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Castor oil is a good guess but not the only one. It's fatty acids are a
couple of carbons longer than the average cooking oil and does seem to
survive well as a lube in model airplane engines. On the industrial
market it is about 30% more expensive than canola. If I wanted to go
cheap I'd simply go with canola right off the shelf. Indeed inexpensive
enough to not recover.

Tea (seed) oil might be another interesting choice. About 88% C18:1
(mono-unsaturated) it has a high smoke point (485 F). Common cooking oil
for southern China and available in this country as specialty cooking
oil.

If you wanted something different blend fat from hamburgers with canola
and enjoy the smell of frying beef food while machining. ;-)

Probably more than you really wanted to know.

Dave
Post by Roland Jollivet
If it's organic, it's bound to be Castor oil, an excellent lubricant.
Because it gums up over time, you could just let it go to drain.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0001P?I=LXS627&P=8
Roland
Post by Leslie Newell
Here is how I did it. I took a short piece of brass bar and drilled most
of the way through with a drill slightly bigger than the smallest tube I
could easily obtain. This creates the air jet. I then drilled the rest
of the way with a drill the same size as the tube. Next I drilled
diagonally in from the back to allow air to pass around the oil pipe to
the air jet. The small tube is pushed right through and soldered in
place. It projects about 1mm past the end of the jet. The whole lot is
then pressed into the plastic nozzle on one of those cheap loc-line
hoses. A small plastic pipe runs from the small tube in the jet, down
the loc-line and out of a made-up block at the bottom. It sounds more
complicated than it is.
I found the trick is to make sure the pipe down the middle projects past
the end of the air nozzle. This way you get a stream of fine droplets in
a cylinder of fast moving air. If the oil pipe is flush with the air
outlet you get a fine mist that hangs in the air rather than going on
the work.
Note that I use a pressurized oil feed as this setup doesn't generate
much vacuum. The pressurized oil is supplied with one of those cheap
combined air regulator/filter and oiler units on eBay like item
#250528218868. I took out the air filter bits and added a pipe fitting
on the bottom of the water trap. The water trap now becomes the oil
reservoir. The reservoir is only small but it lasts quite a long time as
you only need a trace of oil.
It pays to use oil designed for misters as it is less toxic than the
usual cutting oils. The stuff I use is vegetable oil based and a gallon
was damn expensive. However it will last many years.
Les
I used the smallest tube I could find.
Post by Gene Heskett
Greetings all;
I find that I can get brass tubing in pretty small sizes, like 1/16" OD,
usually sized to be a slip fit in the next larger size, so this makes it
easy
Post by Gene Heskett
to solder up a small nozzle, with the far end built up to 1/4" for
attaching
Post by Gene Heskett
the air supply.
Now, I'm wondering if there is a standard formula that would tell me the
exact geometry it would take to make a 2 tube, one blowing across the end
of
Post by Gene Heskett
the other with air, and the second pulling from a nearby quart of cutting
oil, in the same manner as the old hand pumped Hudson sprayers, to add a
slight mist of cutting oil to the air blowing on the mill? Angles,
center
Post by Gene Heskett
separations etc? I think I can just solder the tubing(s) to another
small
Post by Gene Heskett
piece of sheet brass to maintain the alignment.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
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trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
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Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
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Emc-users mailing list
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Jeshua Lacock
2009-11-15 21:09:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by dave
Castor oil is a good guess but not the only one. It's fatty acids are a
couple of carbons longer than the average cooking oil and does seem to
survive well as a lube in model airplane engines. On the industrial
market it is about 30% more expensive than canola. If I wanted to go
cheap I'd simply go with canola right off the shelf. Indeed
inexpensive
enough to not recover.
If you want to get even more value out of your oil - you could burn it
when it is done.

I have casted hundreds of pounds of iron and aluminum from my oil
burner. Or you could heat your shop with it.

Here I am melting iron with vegetable oil:

<http://openosx.com/hotspring/foundry/melt-iron/melt-iron.html>


Cheers,

Jeshua Lacock
Founder/Programmer
3DTOPO Incorporated
<http://3DTOPO.com>
Phone: 208.462.4171
Gene Heskett
2009-11-15 19:56:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leslie Newell
Here is how I did it. I took a short piece of brass bar and drilled most
of the way through with a drill slightly bigger than the smallest tube I
could easily obtain. This creates the air jet. I then drilled the rest
of the way with a drill the same size as the tube. Next I drilled
diagonally in from the back to allow air to pass around the oil pipe to
the air jet. The small tube is pushed right through and soldered in
place. It projects about 1mm past the end of the jet. The whole lot is
then pressed into the plastic nozzle on one of those cheap loc-line
hoses. A small plastic pipe runs from the small tube in the jet, down
the loc-line and out of a made-up block at the bottom. It sounds more
complicated than it is.
I must confess I had to think about this to get the right mental picture, but
now its clear, almost exactly the same as an air brush gun, where the liquid
comes out of the center. So that center tube feeding in the oil is
surrounded by by the air exiting through the gap between the OD of that tube
and the drilled holes walls. Neat, and looks to be fairly rugged too. I'll
see what I can come up with. The nearest tubing is probably the Hobby Stop
25 miles up the interstate in Bridgeport, he carries that whole line of
graduated size tubing in brass, alu and even plastic for the model makers.

Neat idea, thanks.
Post by Leslie Newell
I found the trick is to make sure the pipe down the middle projects past
the end of the air nozzle. This way you get a stream of fine droplets in
a cylinder of fast moving air. If the oil pipe is flush with the air
outlet you get a fine mist that hangs in the air rather than going on
the work.
Good to know that the atomization can be overdone.
Post by Leslie Newell
Note that I use a pressurized oil feed as this setup doesn't generate
much vacuum. The pressurized oil is supplied with one of those cheap
combined air regulator/filter and oiler units on eBay like item
#250528218868. I took out the air filter bits and added a pipe fitting
on the bottom of the water trap. The water trap now becomes the oil
reservoir. The reservoir is only small but it lasts quite a long time as
you only need a trace of oil.
That I can source at Lowes, and probably for no more that that one by the
time you pay ebays usually outrageous S&H. I also have a pair of those in the
tank electric fuel pumps, which also might serve as the flow regulator and
pump, triggering it with a spare relay on the spindle controller, spindle
running, get oil in the air.
Post by Leslie Newell
It pays to use oil designed for misters as it is less toxic than the
usual cutting oils. The stuff I use is vegetable oil based and a gallon
was damn expensive. However it will last many years.
I'll also check that when I am out of the quart of cutting oil I am using
now.

Thanks Les, appreciate the help.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

In defeat, unbeatable; in victory, unbearable.
-- W. Churchill, on General Montgomery
Leslie Newell
2009-11-15 23:11:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gene,
Post by Gene Heskett
almost exactly the same as an air brush gun, where the liquid
comes out of the center. So that center tube feeding in the oil is
surrounded by by the air exiting through the gap between the OD of that tube
and the drilled holes walls.
Yup. The tricky bit is finding the right drill diameter. You only need a
very small gap otherwise you end up using LOTS of air. With a small gap
you can use a higher pressure and most of the flow is then air dragged
in by the high velocity air stream.

A better way may be to drill the other way round. A big hole followed by
a smaller hole that is the jet size. The oil tube is then fitted through
a star shaped insert that fits in the larger hole. The air travels
through the gaps in the star. Slightly more complicated but it reduces
the restriction on airflow so again you can decrease the jet gap and
increase efficiency. Mine uses a fair amount of air and the compressor
kicking in on a fairly regular basis can get annoying.


Oh yes, I forgot to mention you really need a needle valve and one-way
valve in the oil line. If you don't have a one-way valve the oil drains
back and takes a while to start flowing next time you turn on the air. I
used 4mm nylon pipe from the oil reservoir to the mister. You can buy
4mm push fit needle valves and one way valves designed for pneumatics.
Post by Gene Heskett
Neat, and looks to be fairly rugged too.
The thin inner tube is a little vulnerable but so far it has survived on
my lathe where it often gets wrapped up in swarf.
Post by Gene Heskett
Good to know that the atomization can be overdone.
Yes you want to keep atomization to a minimum.
Post by Gene Heskett
pump, triggering it with a spare relay on the spindle controller, spindle
running, get oil in the air.
I use a solenoid valve on the air supply, driven from the mist coolant
output.

Les
Gene Heskett
2009-11-15 23:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leslie Newell
Hi Gene,
Post by Gene Heskett
almost exactly the same as an air brush gun, where the liquid
comes out of the center. So that center tube feeding in the oil is
surrounded by by the air exiting through the gap between the OD of that
tube and the drilled holes walls.
Yup. The tricky bit is finding the right drill diameter. You only need a
very small gap otherwise you end up using LOTS of air. With a small gap
you can use a higher pressure and most of the flow is then air dragged
in by the high velocity air stream.
A better way may be to drill the other way round. A big hole followed by
a smaller hole that is the jet size. The oil tube is then fitted through
a star shaped insert that fits in the larger hole. The air travels
through the gaps in the star. Slightly more complicated but it reduces
the restriction on airflow so again you can decrease the jet gap and
increase efficiency. Mine uses a fair amount of air and the compressor
kicking in on a fairly regular basis can get annoying.
Oh yes, I forgot to mention you really need a needle valve and one-way
valve in the oil line. If you don't have a one-way valve the oil drains
back and takes a while to start flowing next time you turn on the air. I
used 4mm nylon pipe from the oil reservoir to the mister. You can buy
4mm push fit needle valves and one way valves designed for pneumatics.
That latter I haven't found yet.

Starting with some tube that was .093 OD, I drilled the next size bigger
drill bit about 2/3rds through a small block of brass. This looks usable
although I'd druther see a smaller air gap. I haven't drilled the side hole
for the air inlet yet, need to go see what size of tubing I can find, in
between getting an oil leak looked at on the wifes car. I suddenly need two
of me, life keeps getting in the way...
Post by Leslie Newell
Post by Gene Heskett
Neat, and looks to be fairly rugged too.
The thin inner tube is a little vulnerable but so far it has survived on
my lathe where it often gets wrapped up in swarf.
I figure on milling this down to pretty small, so it can be aimed just by
bending the air supply tubing.
Post by Leslie Newell
Post by Gene Heskett
Good to know that the atomization can be overdone.
Yes you want to keep atomization to a minimum.
Post by Gene Heskett
pump, triggering it with a spare relay on the spindle controller, spindle
running, get oil in the air.
I use a solenoid valve on the air supply, driven from the mist coolant
output.
I haven't stumbled over one of those yet...

Thanks Les
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

Oh don't the days seem lank and long
When all goes right and none goes wrong,
And isn't your life extremely flat
With nothing whatever to grumble at!
Ian W. Wright
2009-11-16 10:21:11 UTC
Permalink
There's good reason not to want castor oil mist spraying
about too much - those first world war fighter aces were
never constipated breathing in all the castor oil fumes
coming from their engines - and the brown underpants were
not always a result of clashes with the enemy!! ;-}

Ian
Leslie Newell
2009-11-16 11:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Gene Heskett
2009-11-16 13:11:56 UTC
Permalink
On Monday 16 November 2009, Leslie Newell wrote:
dave
2009-11-16 17:02:31 UTC
Permalink
Dave
2009-11-16 17:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Misters bother me.... unless they are tuned just so you can put a big
cloud in your shop in no time.

Flood coolant might be messy also but it doesn't fog your shop and your
lungs.

There is some mention of people trying to use food oils on
practicalmachinist.com and the residue drying to a sticky mess.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php/cold-air-gun-vs-162714p3.html

You might want take a sample of the mister oil you want to use and let
it sit on a surface for a while and dry and see what you have afterwards.

I've done some work in a heat treat facility where they quench hot parts
with various fluids and the fumes and mist in that place is really bad.
Everything becomes sticky or oily.
I'd be careful not to recreate that scene in the space around your
machine!

I use propylene glycol (aka pink RV antifreeze - you can drink the stuff
in small quantities) in my bandsaw as a flood coolant and it works
great. It doesn't get sticky, it doesn't freeze, and it has a
corrosion inhibitor in it. $2.50/gallon in the fall when everyone puts
it on sale.

Dave
Roland Jollivet
2009-11-16 17:57:22 UTC
Permalink
I was looking at misters too once, and it seems the general feeling is it's
fine if you're happy to have everything in the workshop coated with oil in a
few months.

If making a mister, why not just 'mist' oil directly, without the air? Like
those 'airless' spray guns. Unless the air blast is a necessary part of the
cooling.

Just reading another article;
- highest smoke point looks to be Avacado oil 520°F/270°C
and elswhere;
"Whale oil was once heavily used in the U.S. for lamp oil and lubricants but
not for cooking. The Inuit do use whale oil for cooking as an alternative
for Seal Oil <http://www.clovegarden.com/ingred/oils.html#seal>. Oil from
sperm whales (actually a liquid wax) is still the best oil for some
precision lubrication applications but is now generally illegal due to the
endangered status of whales (the last sperm oil company in the U.S. closed
in 1978). Jojoba Oil <http://www.clovegarden.com/ingred/oils.html#jojoba> is
the only satisfactory alternative for whale oil lubricants."

Roland
Post by Dave
Misters bother me.... unless they are tuned just so you can put a big
cloud in your shop in no time.
Flood coolant might be messy also but it doesn't fog your shop and your
lungs.
There is some mention of people trying to use food oils on
practicalmachinist.com and the residue drying to a sticky mess.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php/cold-air-gun-vs-162714p3.html
You might want take a sample of the mister oil you want to use and let
it sit on a surface for a while and dry and see what you have afterwards.
I've done some work in a heat treat facility where they quench hot parts
with various fluids and the fumes and mist in that place is really bad.
Everything becomes sticky or oily.
I'd be careful not to recreate that scene in the space around your
machine!
I use propylene glycol (aka pink RV antifreeze - you can drink the stuff
in small quantities) in my bandsaw as a flood coolant and it works
great. It doesn't get sticky, it doesn't freeze, and it has a
corrosion inhibitor in it. $2.50/gallon in the fall when everyone puts
it on sale.
Dave
Andy Pugh
2009-11-16 22:10:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Jollivet
"Whale oil was once heavily used in the U.S. for lamp oil and lubricants but
not for cooking. The Inuit do use whale oil for cooking as an alternative
for Seal Oil <http://www.clovegarden.com/ingred/oils.html#seal>. Oil from
sperm whales (actually a liquid wax) is still the best oil for some
precision lubrication applications but is now generally illegal due to the
endangered status of whales
We were still using whale oil for quenching steel in 1995 when I was
doing research at Leeds University. It was old stock, of course, but
they had enough to last for many more decades.

As for rapeseed oil, I am pretty sure that is what it is sold as in
the UK, rather than being rebranded as Canola. What the actual oil is,
I have no idea.
--
atp
Gene Heskett
2009-11-17 03:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
Misters bother me.... unless they are tuned just so you can put a big
cloud in your shop in no time.
Flood coolant might be messy also but it doesn't fog your shop and your
lungs.
There is some mention of people trying to use food oils on
practicalmachinist.com and the residue drying to a sticky mess.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php/cold-air-gun-vs-162714p
3.html
You might want take a sample of the mister oil you want to use and let
it sit on a surface for a while and dry and see what you have afterwards.
I'll do that. Olive seems to want to do that as I'm observing our skillets
when they are a day old.
Post by Dave
I've done some work in a heat treat facility where they quench hot parts
with various fluids and the fumes and mist in that place is really bad.
Everything becomes sticky or oily.
I'd be careful not to recreate that scene in the space around your
machine!
I don't intend to. I intend to rig a $20 vacuum with a throwaway paper bag
on the downstream side.
Post by Dave
I use propylene glycol (aka pink RV antifreeze - you can drink the stuff
in small quantities) in my bandsaw as a flood coolant and it works
great. It doesn't get sticky, it doesn't freeze, and it has a
corrosion inhibitor in it. $2.50/gallon in the fall when everyone puts
it on sale.
My new bandsaw is relegated to wood, and possibly venison. The old craftsman
12" has cut everything, including slices off the end of a 6" sq alu solid
beam. I got it, nearly 2 feet long, several years ago at $1/lb, aka 40
dollars. I'm still making things from it. :)
Post by Dave
Dave
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

Two cars in every pot and a chicken in every garage.
Dave
2009-11-17 16:25:48 UTC
Permalink
If you want to cheat on the orifice drilling - consider using a mig
welder tip - a common Tweco tip comes in a .024 size and I have used
that in a waste oil burner as an air jet. I soldered the tip into the
ID of a piece of 1/4" copper tubing. Works great - and no small hole
drilling. Want less of a hole? Perhaps smacking the tip with a hammer
would work to compress the hole in the copper tip.

Dave
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Dave
Misters bother me.... unless they are tuned just so you can put a big
cloud in your shop in no time.
Flood coolant might be messy also but it doesn't fog your shop and your
lungs.
There is some mention of people trying to use food oils on
practicalmachinist.com and the residue drying to a sticky mess.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php/cold-air-gun-vs-162714p
3.html
You might want take a sample of the mister oil you want to use and let
it sit on a surface for a while and dry and see what you have afterwards.
I'll do that. Olive seems to want to do that as I'm observing our skillets
when they are a day old.
Post by Dave
I've done some work in a heat treat facility where they quench hot parts
with various fluids and the fumes and mist in that place is really bad.
Everything becomes sticky or oily.
I'd be careful not to recreate that scene in the space around your
machine!
I don't intend to. I intend to rig a $20 vacuum with a throwaway paper bag
on the downstream side.
Post by Dave
I use propylene glycol (aka pink RV antifreeze - you can drink the stuff
in small quantities) in my bandsaw as a flood coolant and it works
great. It doesn't get sticky, it doesn't freeze, and it has a
corrosion inhibitor in it. $2.50/gallon in the fall when everyone puts
it on sale.
My new bandsaw is relegated to wood, and possibly venison. The old craftsman
12" has cut everything, including slices off the end of a 6" sq alu solid
beam. I got it, nearly 2 feet long, several years ago at $1/lb, aka 40
dollars. I'm still making things from it. :)
Post by Dave
Dave
Gene Heskett
2009-11-17 16:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
If you want to cheat on the orifice drilling - consider using a mig
welder tip - a common Tweco tip comes in a .024 size and I have used
that in a waste oil burner as an air jet. I soldered the tip into the
ID of a piece of 1/4" copper tubing. Works great - and no small hole
drilling. Want less of a hole? Perhaps smacking the tip with a hammer
would work to compress the hole in the copper tip.
Dave
Dave, Erik:

I don't know how its going to work just yet, but see my web page at
<http://gene.homelinux.net:85/gene/emc> and look for the *mister.png's I just
took, and cropped down to only 1/10th of the frame the camera took, I wasn't
able to convince it to focus any closer than about 7". I also didn't get it
well centered in that little block of brass either. And I need to drill a
mounting hole, or just go ahead and attach a 1/4" tube to the angled pipe and
mount that similarly to the current blow only rig which is strung thru a
large electrical lug on the side of the mill's head housing.

The straight thru that ends in the 1/16" OD is a tight friction fit, so the
projection can be fiddled with.

The oil reservoir will be a $12.95 air filter, with the oil hose attached to
the 'automatic' drain valve, and the air hose output will go on through to
the angled air feed pipe. I haven't been to the grocery store for some
Safflower oil yet.

The soldering isn't my usual quality, I seem to have miss-placed my little
tin of resin soldering flux that makes sweat soldering so easy. A eutectic
blend with 3% silver, it should be strong enough though.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

<JHM> Somehow I have more respect for 14 year old Debian developers than
14 year old Certified Microsoft Serfs.
Gene Heskett
2009-11-17 03:13:48 UTC
Permalink
David Braley
2009-11-16 19:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gene,

I've been following the thread you started on a mister for a small mill.
I can't advise you on making your own, but I can recommend that you just
buy one. The systems I have here in my shop are made by Kool Mist. Hands
down they are the best. I never buy mine new, but I find them on Ebay.
They come up regularly, and I don't think I've ever paid more than $10
for a single head unit. This is the unit I'm talking about. I think it
would be perfect for a small mill:

Loading Image...

I machine a lot of stainless steel, so I use the #77 Kool Mist coolant.
I buy it by the gallon from Enco, and you mix it 4 ounces of coolant to
one gallon of water. Here is a link to the coolant:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=505-2076&PMPXNO=947353&PARTPG=INLMK3

I have no idea why some of you on this list are having trouble with
using misters. I typically adjust mine so the air stream is very gentle,
and the mist is barely visible. I use my finger in front of the nozzle
to make sure coolant is coming out. Tiny droplets will form on the
surface of where you are machining that lets me know the coolant is
coming out. They are super easy to adjust.

Typically I can machine for about 12 hours on one gallon of mix. Also,
my machine shop is a very tight air-space wise because I live in a cold
climate, and I don't want to pay a lot for heating (when it's below
freezing outside, my gas bill is usually only about $34 a month to keep
it at 69 degrees inside. I work in 940 square feet). I never get the
fogging some of you talk about, and my machines are always dry and
clean. This stuff does not spread itself around the shop and make a mess.

Before I started using the misters, my tooling costs where much higher.
They are not a replacement for true flood systems, but for an open
machine (no splash guards), these little units really work great. I do
not work for Kool Mist. I just think you should pick one up and use it.
You will not be sorry.

David, (a machinist who has been cranking handles now for over 35 years)
Post by Gene Heskett
Greetings all;
I find that I can get brass tubing in pretty small sizes, like 1/16" OD,
usually sized to be a slip fit in the next larger size, so this makes it easy
to solder up a small nozzle, with the far end built up to 1/4" for attaching
the air supply.
Now, I'm wondering if there is a standard formula that would tell me the
exact geometry it would take to make a 2 tube, one blowing across the end of
the other with air, and the second pulling from a nearby quart of cutting
oil, in the same manner as the old hand pumped Hudson sprayers, to add a
slight mist of cutting oil to the air blowing on the mill? Angles, center
separations etc? I think I can just solder the tubing(s) to another small
piece of sheet brass to maintain the alignment.
Ron Ginger
2009-11-18 02:35:52 UTC
Permalink
A couple observations on misters. When they are properly adjusted the
amount of mist dispensed is tiny. A Bijur unit will take several seconds
to puddle just 2-3 drops into your hand. The cooling is mostly from the
air stream. If you have a room full of mist you are not running it right.

To make a very tiny orifice put a tube into your lathe chuck. Make a
small female center for the tailstock and spin the tube into the center.
You can swedge the tube down to a very tiny hole- a friend did it for a
gas jet in a burner for a model engine- an orifice size of just .005- .007.

ron ginger
Gene Heskett
2009-11-18 03:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Ginger
A couple observations on misters. When they are properly adjusted the
amount of mist dispensed is tiny. A Bijur unit will take several seconds
to puddle just 2-3 drops into your hand. The cooling is mostly from the
air stream. If you have a room full of mist you are not running it right.
Yeah, the first time I applied air pressure it emptied the reservoir of
Vactra #2, in about a second flat, but nowhere near all of it went on the
mill. Most of it went out the gap between the hose barb on the bottom, which
was rigged as an automatic drain valve. So it got pulled out, washed up in
acetone, blown dry, and sealed in place with some super-glue. Then the
little 'needle' valve turned out not to be a needle at all, plus it ran out
of threads before it was turned off, so I had to force it, and now its backed
off from a full stop by maybe 2 degrees. Then I filled the reservoir with
another 1.5 oz of Vactra #2 and made two spockets. That worked well except
for the backlash in my table. I could see the bit pushing it one way
climbing to the top of the tooth, then slip back a degree or so as it headed
down the far side of the tooth. The root of the tooth is too wide and it
won't roll into and back out of the chain without a bad catch on the tooth
being pulled out. The tables worm has been pushed over, and its now running
999999 degrees each way till whenever trying to wear in the bull gears high
spots.
Post by Ron Ginger
To make a very tiny orifice put a tube into your lathe chuck. Make a
small female center for the tailstock and spin the tube into the center.
You can swedge the tube down to a very tiny hole- a friend did it for a
gas jet in a burner for a model engine- an orifice size of just .005- .007.
Great idea Ron, consider this done, sometime tomorrow. I assume I should
anneal first? This brass seems to be very well work hardened right now.
Post by Ron Ginger
ron ginger
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

Mal: "This distress call wouldn't be taking place in someone's pants, would
it?"
--Episode #13, "Heart of Gold"
Kent A. Reed
2009-11-18 15:06:24 UTC
Permalink
Gentle persons:

I know I'm a big worry wort but two things really bother me about misting.

The first thing goes back to my days as a lab safety officer. Our lungs
aren't really designed to deal with atomized organic oils. A Material
Safety Data Sheet may say the oil has low toxicity but that probably
isn't relevant to this issue. I don't want to breathe it. The finer the
mist the bigger the problem because the deeper it can get (can you spell
chemical pneumonia?).

The second thing goes back to my days as a teenager when we thought
explosions were pure fun. A fine mist of oil, even one with a high flash
point, is a basic ingredient to an awesome flame (Case in point: anyone
see the recent Myth Busters episode dealing with kitchen stove fires?)
In my case, the only place in our townhouse my wife will let me put the
tabletop mill I don't have yet is in our basement utility room, sharing
space with a gas-fired water heater and a gas-fired furnace. Hmmm, not
one but two sources of ignition.

Like I say, I'm a big worry wort, but accidents are what happens just
when you think everything is going fine. My first real summer job, as an
engineering aide on a major construction project was 75-percent
construction inspection and 25-percent recording accidents. What an
eye-opener.

Live long and prosper.

Regards,
Kent
Gene Heskett
2009-11-18 16:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent A. Reed
I know I'm a big worry wort but two things really bother me about misting.
The first thing goes back to my days as a lab safety officer. Our lungs
aren't really designed to deal with atomized organic oils. A Material
Safety Data Sheet may say the oil has low toxicity but that probably
isn't relevant to this issue. I don't want to breathe it. The finer the
mist the bigger the problem because the deeper it can get (can you spell
chemical pneumonia?).
The second thing goes back to my days as a teenager when we thought
explosions were pure fun. A fine mist of oil, even one with a high flash
point, is a basic ingredient to an awesome flame (Case in point: anyone
see the recent Myth Busters episode dealing with kitchen stove fires?)
In my case, the only place in our townhouse my wife will let me put the
tabletop mill I don't have yet is in our basement utility room, sharing
space with a gas-fired water heater and a gas-fired furnace. Hmmm, not
one but two sources of ignition.
Like I say, I'm a big worry wort, but accidents are what happens just
when you think everything is going fine. My first real summer job, as an
engineering aide on a major construction project was 75-percent
construction inspection and 25-percent recording accidents. What an
eye-opener.
Live long and prosper.
Regards,
Kent
I was surprised at its performance. Even when miss-adjusted and outputting
half an ounce of Vactra #2 in just 2 or 3 seconds, it appeared that all the
oil went on the workpiece, and very little odor of it was present, no moreso
than if I had just squirted the same amount on the workpiece from an 8 oz
pump oiler. Any oil that was flung, seemed to be flung from the spinning
mill itself as it stayed nicely wet, and those droplets would have been heavy
enough to fall out of the air at std gravity rates. I had a movie camera
about 18" away, and it had a few droplets on it when I was done, and my T
shirt was well anointed with oily alu shavings blown there by the air. All
of this at elevations a foot below my nose, my glasses didn't get a single
hit. The building is moderately well sealed but not insulated, and one of
the two mating doors 44" wide just 2 feet from the mill was open, so plenty
of yesterdays great weather kept the air fairly clean anyway.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

FORTUNE PROVIDES QUESTIONS FOR THE GREAT ANSWERS: #31
A: Chicken Teriyaki.
Q: What is the name of the world's oldest kamikaze pilot?
Ron Ginger
2009-11-18 16:39:34 UTC
Permalink
If you really dont want mist in the air there was an article in an old
magazine, I think HOME SHOP MACHINIST about building a solenoid operated
pump with a nozzle held by a mag base and pointed at the work. It used a
555 timer IC to generate a tiny pump stroke every few seconds. This
directed just a drop of coolant right on the tool edge, and with a
simple knob you adjust the rate to get just enough coolant.

This one has been 'on my list' for a while, I think its the best
approach for a home shop. Someday Ill actually get around to it.

ron ginger
Leslie Newell
2009-11-18 17:05:46 UTC
Permalink
If you are machining some of the softer grades of aluminum you need a
pretty much constant flow of coolant. You don't need much but if it runs
dry it can clog the cutter very quickly. Also if you are using carbide a
sudden squirt of coolant could cause the cutting edges to crack.

Les
Post by Ron Ginger
If you really dont want mist in the air there was an article in an old
magazine, I think HOME SHOP MACHINIST about building a solenoid operated
pump with a nozzle held by a mag base and pointed at the work. It used a
555 timer IC to generate a tiny pump stroke every few seconds. This
directed just a drop of coolant right on the tool edge, and with a
simple knob you adjust the rate to get just enough coolant.
This one has been 'on my list' for a while, I think its the best
approach for a home shop. Someday Ill actually get around to it.
ron ginger
Gene Heskett
2009-11-19 03:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Ginger
If you really dont want mist in the air there was an article in an old
magazine, I think HOME SHOP MACHINIST about building a solenoid operated
pump with a nozzle held by a mag base and pointed at the work. It used a
555 timer IC to generate a tiny pump stroke every few seconds. This
directed just a drop of coolant right on the tool edge, and with a
simple knob you adjust the rate to get just enough coolant.
This one has been 'on my list' for a while, I think its the best
approach for a home shop. Someday Ill actually get around to it.
ron ginger
And that is another thing I've been threatening to go into production of,
round 'tuit's. I can't find the one I had 40 years ago. :)

The idea of swaging the tip down to about zip got me to thinking, and the
thoughts ran toward insulin needles, which are $1.89 a 10 pak at Wallies
Pharmacy. That was fallback plan, brought on by my not being able to find a
suitable female swage form for that small a pipe. I annealed it, then
clamped a well polished 3/8" drill chuck on the last 1/16", tightened it up
enough to start crushing the pipe, and gave it 4 or 5 turns. 3 times, but all
I succeeded in doing was wearing it off without appearing to shrink the
center hole. So I am now using 3x as much air & already had a great plenty
of that.

So then I pulled the needle out of one of the shringes, bloody difficult cuz
a 31 gauge needle is only .012" for OD. Hard to get a good grip even with
suture clamps. Thinking about super gluing it, then realized that super glue,
being about 1000x wetter than water, would probably seal up the inner passage
of the needle long before it had filled the relatively huge space between the
needles OD and the pipes ID. I even tried to swage it down onto the needle
with a hammer and anvil, but I can see that is just as futile. So I'm going
to sleep on it unless someone has a better idea.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

If you analyse anything, you destroy it.
-- Arthur Miller
Andy Pugh
2009-11-19 10:35:48 UTC
Permalink
 I even tried to swage it down onto the needle
with a hammer and anvil, but I can see that is just as futile.  So I'm going
to sleep on it unless someone has a better idea.
Will an ER collet crimp the tube down?

I think I would be trying 2-part epoxy, dabbed on the needle before
insertion. That way there shouldn't be any glue near either tip.
However I am not sure that I have your arrangment properly visualised.
--
atp
Gene Heskett
2009-11-19 12:50:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Pugh
Post by Gene Heskett
I even tried to swage it down onto the needle
with a hammer and anvil, but I can see that is just as futile. So I'm
going to sleep on it unless someone has a better idea.
Will an ER collet crimp the tube down?
I think I would be trying 2-part epoxy, dabbed on the needle before
insertion. That way there shouldn't be any glue near either tip.
However I am not sure that I have your arrangment properly visualised.
There are a couple of pix of it on my web page Andy. Look for *mister.png's,
but don't come in through the main 'gene' page, go direct to gene/emc as I
haven't updated the indexing yet.
<http://gene.homelinux.net:85/gene/emc> should get you there.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

Mr. Universe: "They can't stop the signal, Mal. They can never stop the
signal."
--"Serenity"
Gene Heskett
2009-11-19 12:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Pugh
Post by Gene Heskett
I even tried to swage it down onto the needle
with a hammer and anvil, but I can see that is just as futile. So I'm
going to sleep on it unless someone has a better idea.
Will an ER collet crimp the tube down?
My collet's for the mill stop at 1/8" unforch.
Post by Andy Pugh
I think I would be trying 2-part epoxy, dabbed on the needle before
insertion. That way there shouldn't be any glue near either tip.
However I am not sure that I have your arrangment properly visualised.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

All articles that coruscate with resplendence are not truly auriferous.
Ian W. Wright
2009-11-19 19:44:45 UTC
Permalink
Gene,

I think your brain's working too hard!! You probably won't
have much success with Insulin needles as the length of thin
tube will act as a brake on the oil. One place you can find
really small bore tube is on an old fridge - the thermostat
bulb which is in the frig compartment is usually coupled to
the gubbins in the back with a very small bore copper tube -
its full of alcohol or some such.. A short length of this
glued into a bigger tube would probably serve your purpose.
If you go down this route, I would tap a pointed scriber
into the end of the little tube you are going to stick into
the bigger tube to make a tapered lead in for the fluid.

To make a swage for any other tube, use a little centre
drill - I have them down to about 1/8" OD. Put a bit of
steel rod in the lathe chuck and drill a centre drill hole
in it, then hold the tube you want to narrow in the
tailstock, lubricate the centre drilled hole and, with the
lathe running, feed the tube into the hole with pressure
from the tailstock. When you've closed it up too much you
can file the end back a bit till the hole is the right size.

Ian
_________________
Ian W. Wright
Sheffield UK
s***@gmail.com
2009-11-19 19:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Glue the needle in place - then cut it off
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Ian W. Wright" <***@talktalk.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:44:45
To: <emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mister for small mill

Gene,

I think your brain's working too hard!! You probably won't
have much success with Insulin needles as the length of thin
tube will act as a brake on the oil. One place you can find
really small bore tube is on an old fridge - the thermostat
bulb which is in the frig compartment is usually coupled to
the gubbins in the back with a very small bore copper tube -
its full of alcohol or some such.. A short length of this
glued into a bigger tube would probably serve your purpose.
If you go down this route, I would tap a pointed scriber
into the end of the little tube you are going to stick into
the bigger tube to make a tapered lead in for the fluid.

To make a swage for any other tube, use a little centre
drill - I have them down to about 1/8" OD. Put a bit of
steel rod in the lathe chuck and drill a centre drill hole
in it, then hold the tube you want to narrow in the
tailstock, lubricate the centre drilled hole and, with the
lathe running, feed the tube into the hole with pressure
from the tailstock. When you've closed it up too much you
can file the end back a bit till the hole is the right size.

Ian
_________________
Ian W. Wright
Sheffield UK

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Gene Heskett
2009-11-19 21:14:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Glue the needle in place - then cut it off
That is also a thought, use Ian's idea to swage it down to nearly zip, use
the needles piercing point to bore it to fit the needle, and then glue the
needle in and wear the point off with some of Mr. Russel's fine stone.
Trying to cut it will probably just crush it as its only 0.012" OD.

Thanks. These are all good ideas.
Post by s***@gmail.com
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:44:45
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mister for small mill
Gene,
I think your brain's working too hard!! You probably won't
have much success with Insulin needles as the length of thin
tube will act as a brake on the oil. One place you can find
really small bore tube is on an old fridge - the thermostat
bulb which is in the frig compartment is usually coupled to
the gubbins in the back with a very small bore copper tube -
its full of alcohol or some such.. A short length of this
glued into a bigger tube would probably serve your purpose.
If you go down this route, I would tap a pointed scriber
into the end of the little tube you are going to stick into
the bigger tube to make a tapered lead in for the fluid.
To make a swage for any other tube, use a little centre
drill - I have them down to about 1/8" OD. Put a bit of
steel rod in the lathe chuck and drill a centre drill hole
in it, then hold the tube you want to narrow in the
tailstock, lubricate the centre drilled hole and, with the
lathe running, feed the tube into the hole with pressure
from the tailstock. When you've closed it up too much you
can file the end back a bit till the hole is the right size.
Ian
_________________
Ian W. Wright
Sheffield UK
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
30-Day trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment -
and focus on what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's
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--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

Accordion, n.:
A bagpipe with pleats.
Gene Heskett
2009-11-19 21:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by s***@gmail.com
Glue the needle in place - then cut it off
That is also a thought, use Ian's idea to swage it down to nearly zip, use
the needles piercing point to bore it to fit the needle, and then glue the
needle in and wear the point off with some of Mr. Russel's fine stone.
Trying to cut it will probably just crush it as its only 0.012" OD.
Thanks. These are all good ideas.
I gave it a try, but this brass is too hard already. And trying to do that
to a 2" piece of it means I'll have to baby a 1/16" drill bit through a piece
of steel about 1/8" shorter just to brace the tubing against buckling when I
put the pressure on. So with what I was able to do, I may have cut the area
of the hole by a few percentage points, but then it buckled despite my
efforts to brace it with some pliers. And the diameter booster sleeves on
the rear of it, came unglued, so they got cleaned up and re glued.

What is the best procedure to anneal just the last 1/8" of this tubing, it
might work if I can get it dead soft again.
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by s***@gmail.com
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:44:45
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mister for small mill
Gene,
I think your brain's working too hard!! You probably won't
have much success with Insulin needles as the length of thin
tube will act as a brake on the oil. One place you can find
really small bore tube is on an old fridge - the thermostat
bulb which is in the frig compartment is usually coupled to
the gubbins in the back with a very small bore copper tube -
its full of alcohol or some such.. A short length of this
glued into a bigger tube would probably serve your purpose.
If you go down this route, I would tap a pointed scriber
into the end of the little tube you are going to stick into
the bigger tube to make a tapered lead in for the fluid.
To make a swage for any other tube, use a little centre
drill - I have them down to about 1/8" OD. Put a bit of
steel rod in the lathe chuck and drill a centre drill hole
in it, then hold the tube you want to narrow in the
tailstock, lubricate the centre drilled hole and, with the
lathe running, feed the tube into the hole with pressure
from the tailstock. When you've closed it up too much you
can file the end back a bit till the hole is the right size.
Ian
_________________
Ian W. Wright
Sheffield UK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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30-Day trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment -
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_______________________________________________
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--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

Oh, yeah, life goes on, long after the thrill of livin' is gone.
-- John Cougar, "Jack and Diane"
Andy Pugh
2009-11-19 22:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Heskett
What is the best procedure to anneal just the last 1/8" of this tubing, it
might work if I can get it dead soft again.
Just get it hot and keep it that way for a while. There is no phase
transition to worry about with brass.
--
atp
Leslie Newell
2009-11-19 22:38:41 UTC
Permalink
As far as I know you don't have to hold it hot for very long. Get it
red, quench and job done. Quenching in battery acid helps remove the
black oxide but beware of the fumes.

Les
Post by Andy Pugh
Post by Gene Heskett
What is the best procedure to anneal just the last 1/8" of this tubing, it
might work if I can get it dead soft again.
Just get it hot and keep it that way for a while. There is no phase
transition to worry about with brass.
Gene Heskett
2009-11-20 00:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Pugh
Post by Gene Heskett
What is the best procedure to anneal just the last 1/8" of this tubing,
it might work if I can get it dead soft again.
Just get it hot and keep it that way for a while. There is no phase
transition to worry about with brass.
Ok. I was going by what I do for cartridge brass necks, which is warm them
while standing in an inch of water, watching the color, and when the straw
gets to the base of the neck, knock that one over into the cool water. That,
while stress relieving it to prevent cracked necks, also leaves it fairly
hard so it will grip the next bullet well.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

There is only one way to kill capitalism -- by taxes, taxes, and more taxes.
-- Karl Marx
Andy Pugh
2009-11-20 00:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Ok.  I was going by what I do for cartridge brass necks, which is warm them
while standing in an inch of water, watching the color, and when the straw
gets to the base of the neck, knock that one over into the cool water.  That,
while stress relieving it to prevent cracked necks, also leaves it fairly
hard so it will grip the next bullet well.
Quenching might put a bit of cold-work back into it. But perhaps
cartridge brass is just hard.
--
atp
Gene Heskett
2009-11-20 00:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Pugh
Post by Gene Heskett
Ok. I was going by what I do for cartridge brass necks, which is warm
them while standing in an inch of water, watching the color, and when the
straw gets to the base of the neck, knock that one over into the cool
water. That, while stress relieving it to prevent cracked necks, also
leaves it fairly hard so it will grip the next bullet well.
Quenching might put a bit of cold-work back into it. But perhaps
cartridge brass is just hard.
If you don't quench, it tends to resemble taffy till its been through the
dies several times. Taffy, as in hand bendable with enough effort.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

Gnagloot, n.:
A person who leaves all his ski passes on his jacket just to
impress people.
-- Rich Hall, "Sniglets"
dave
2009-11-20 01:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Pugh
Post by Gene Heskett
Ok. I was going by what I do for cartridge brass necks, which is warm them
while standing in an inch of water, watching the color, and when the straw
gets to the base of the neck, knock that one over into the cool water. That,
while stress relieving it to prevent cracked necks, also leaves it fairly
hard so it will grip the next bullet well.
Quenching might put a bit of cold-work back into it. But perhaps
cartridge brass is just hard.
google C62000 and see what you get.

HTH

dave
Leslie Newell
2009-11-19 22:36:51 UTC
Permalink
I would be concerned about having a very fine needle sticking out. It
would be very vulnerable. I have no problems with a piece of 1/16" OD
tube and a needle valve. You are going to need a needle valve anyway
because some jobs need more oil than others.

Les
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by s***@gmail.com
Glue the needle in place - then cut it off
That is also a thought, use Ian's idea to swage it down to nearly zip, use
the needles piercing point to bore it to fit the needle, and then glue the
needle in and wear the point off with some of Mr. Russel's fine stone.
Trying to cut it will probably just crush it as its only 0.012" OD.
Thanks. These are all good ideas.
Post by s***@gmail.com
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
Gene Heskett
2009-11-20 00:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leslie Newell
I would be concerned about having a very fine needle sticking out. It
would be very vulnerable. I have no problems with a piece of 1/16" OD
tube and a needle valve. You are going to need a needle valve anyway
because some jobs need more oil than others.
Les
Without a doubt. The so-called needle valve I got from Lowes didn't want to
shut off, so I took it apart to discover there was nothing needle about it.
The reason it wouldn't turn off is that the threads in the body weren't
tapped deep enough, and I had to force it the last half turn to actually get
to a seated condition. ATM it is open maybe 2 degrees from screwed down
tight, so the oil is just sort of seeping through it and that seems to be
more than enough to keep the mill and work wet.

I also thought of soldering it shut, then using the needle to bore a hole in
the solder, then glue the needle into the bored hole. Cut it off a sixteenth
proud & polish that to just proud of the solder should work. The needle
itself is only 3/8" long once pulled from the plastic. However, if I could
find a _real_ needle valve that would be even better. All I need is a good
method of adjusting the flow anyway, which this valve sure as heck isn't.
10 degrees off the seat and its effectively wide open.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

<dark> "Hey, I'm from this project called Debian... have you heard of it?
Your name seems to be on a bunch of our stuff."
Leslie Newell
2009-11-20 09:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Sounds like you have an aquarium air valve.

Find a hobby shop that sells models that use engines. Ask for a mixture
needle assembly. Most shops have a stack of broken models out the back
that they raid for parts. Generally the needle valves have a 1/8" hose
barb on one end and a thread on the other that screws into the carb.
They give very fine control over the flow. If you find a good shop they
may well have remote needle valves for aircraft. These have two hose barbs.

Les
Post by Gene Heskett
Without a doubt. The so-called needle valve I got from Lowes didn't want to
shut off, so I took it apart to discover there was nothing needle about it.
The reason it wouldn't turn off is that the threads in the body weren't
tapped deep enough, and I had to force it the last half turn to actually get
to a seated condition. ATM it is open maybe 2 degrees from screwed down
tight, so the oil is just sort of seeping through it and that seems to be
more than enough to keep the mill and work wet.
Gene Heskett
2009-11-20 14:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leslie Newell
Sounds like you have an aquarium air valve.
Or an ice-maker shutoff. :)
Post by Leslie Newell
Find a hobby shop that sells models that use engines. Ask for a mixture
needle assembly. Most shops have a stack of broken models out the back
that they raid for parts. Generally the needle valves have a 1/8" hose
barb on one end and a thread on the other that screws into the carb.
They give very fine control over the flow. If you find a good shop they
may well have remote needle valves for aircraft. These have two hose barbs.
I'll do that the next time I get to Bridgeport. although I believe his model
business has largely transitioned to the battery pack powered stuff, racing 4
wheelers etc + electric trains in smaller gauges. He has never had much of a
selection of the glow plug engines visible.

Thanks Les.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or
whether I am now a butterfly dreaming I am a man.
-- Chuang-tzu
Leslie Newell
2009-11-20 14:37:54 UTC
Permalink
Glow engines are dying out for the smaller stuff. Electric power has
come on so much in the last few years. Electric power is now pretty
close as far as power/weight is concerned and it is so much more convenient.

Les
Post by Gene Heskett
I'll do that the next time I get to Bridgeport. although I believe his model
business has largely transitioned to the battery pack powered stuff, racing 4
wheelers etc + electric trains in smaller gauges. He has never had much of a
selection of the glow plug engines visible.
Thanks Les.
Gene Heskett
2009-11-19 21:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian W. Wright
Gene,
I think your brain's working too hard!!
:) Probably so Ian.
Post by Ian W. Wright
You probably won't
have much success with Insulin needles as the length of thin
tube will act as a brake on the oil.
There seems to be plenty of pressure to make it flow.
Post by Ian W. Wright
One place you can find
really small bore tube is on an old fridge - the thermostat
bulb which is in the frig compartment is usually coupled to
the gubbins in the back with a very small bore copper tube -
its full of alcohol or some such.. A short length of this
glued into a bigger tube would probably serve your purpose.
If you go down this route, I would tap a pointed scriber
into the end of the little tube you are going to stick into
the bigger tube to make a tapered lead in for the fluid.
Would that not tend to make a piece of dirt wedge itself in? We may not
intend to get dirt in the oil, but Murphy is always looking over my shoulder.
Post by Ian W. Wright
To make a swage for any other tube, use a little centre
drill - I have them down to about 1/8" OD. Put a bit of
steel rod in the lathe chuck and drill a centre drill hole
in it, then hold the tube you want to narrow in the
tailstock, lubricate the centre drilled hole and, with the
lathe running, feed the tube into the hole with pressure
from the tailstock. When you've closed it up too much you
can file the end back a bit till the hole is the right size.
I thought of that, but wondered how well the superglue I have the 2nd one
assembled with would do when it has that push against it in shear mode, its
1/16" tube about 2" long, with concentric larger tubes glued to it until its
large enough for the 0.170" bore of the vinyl hose from the reservoir, which
is pressurized at the same pressure as the air nozzle is getting. If I open
the valve, I can put 2 oz of Vactra #2 on the work and mill in 2 seconds
flat, so the 1/16" OD pipe is still way too big a bore. I do have the center
drill that size but didn't think the included would be suitable to swaging
brass. Its worth a try though, all I can do is break the glue loose. I
believe my dead center might even rest in the hole in the back end of that
inside pipe.

I'll go try it, thanks Ian.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

Without life, Biology itself would be impossible.
Ian W. Wright
2009-11-20 12:30:25 UTC
Permalink
Gene,

Can't imagine why you'd want to stand in an inch of water to
soften brass ;-}

You answered your own question really - just get it hot and
leave it - it will be soft. Better still, use copper.
Now, needle valves - think laterally - where are they used -
carburettors.... do you have an old carburettor hanging
about or, better still, an old model aero engine which will
have a needle valve in a bit of brass tube for a carburettor
- strip it out and mount it crosswise in your bigger brass
tube and you have a ready made atomiser..

Ian
Gene Heskett
2009-11-20 15:02:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian W. Wright
Gene,
Can't imagine why you'd want to stand in an inch of water to
soften brass ;-}
The cartridge case, not me obviously. ;)
Post by Ian W. Wright
You answered your own question really - just get it hot and
leave it - it will be soft. Better still, use copper.
No copper available at that gittin place. But, next time I go to the old
transmitter, I recall there are some failed thermometers as it monitored the
water temps with dial thermometers with remote bulbs, that capillary tube
would make a decent piece of raw material. And it is copper.
Post by Ian W. Wright
Now, needle valves - think laterally - where are they used -
carburettors....
True, but in small engines you have to find one 20-40 years old now since the
EPA got into the regulating business, they are all fixed jets now, and
usually too damned lean, and plugged up tight by corrosion after sitting dry
for the winter so they get to sell you a new $50 one come spring. But its a
thought I'll keep in mind.
Post by Ian W. Wright
do you have an old carburettor hanging
about or, better still, an old model aero engine which will
have a needle valve in a bit of brass tube for a carburettor
- strip it out and mount it crosswise in your bigger brass
tube and you have a ready made atomiser..
I don't believe we need that fine an atomizer, that is how we would load the
breathing air up. I think the idea here seems to be the injection directly
into the center of the air stream, of a small amount that eventually becomes
a big enough droplet hanging off the end of the tube so that it gets carried
away in larger droplets that are ballisticly delivered to the work/mill
interface, about a 1.25" distance with the way I have it mounted.. So the
work stays wet, without a lot of it hanging in the air. Air pressures are in
the 15-50 psi range, just enough to blow most of the chips away when they are
sticky with the oil. The air jet is formed by the clearance between the OD
of the 1/16" tube, and a 5/64" hole the tube is projecting through, by about
1/16". The small tubes end then is in the center of this air stream and is
apparently subjected to a slight siphoning vacuum although I haven't tried to
measure it. In any event, the oil reservoir has the same pressure in it as
the air flows through it, functioning as a filter of sorts, and the oil exits
its screw-on bowl via the drain fitting on the bottom. Heavy duty flow
restriction required else it will dump the bowls contents onto the mill and
workpiece in a second or so after air pressure is applied. Un-screw the bowl
to add oil. So far the hose barb has slipped in the hose as the bowl is
rotated, but I suspect I'll have to find some mini-clamps to keep it from
blowing off under pressure eventually.

Thanks Ian.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

knowledge, n.:
Things you believe.
Kirk Wallace
2009-11-20 19:14:06 UTC
Permalink
One idea I have been meaning to try on my mister is to use a peristaltic
pump, maybe powered by a stepper and EMC2 stepgen, to meter the fluid
into the air stream. This way, I can better control the fluid quantity
rate and I won't get fluid drain-back, so the fluid will come on
instantly. Inkjet printers often have a small pump for cleaning the
head.

Another thing that comes to mind, on my Hardinge lathe and Shizuoka
mill, any hint of water seems to cause rust, so I won't be using any
water based anything around my machines.
--
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA
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