Discussion:
Need advice on 1/16" end mill
(too old to reply)
gene heskett
2012-02-13 01:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Guys;

I just broke my last brand new 1/16th carbide end mill in about 15 minutes
running time, a 4 flute with about 1/2" of working length, trying to get
started on another alu encoder wheel, getting about 80% of the way around
the outside, running at 2500 revs, and 1.5 ipm, cutting only .005" deep,
running in a puddle of cutting oil.

Obviously the 4 flute is a no-no in soft alu as it was pushing alu ahead of
itself for 90% of what it did cut which tells me it was half plugged after
the first 1/2" of feed in that heavy duty (0.0037" thick) coors can alu .
Filled up the flutes nearly instantly even if it was swimming in cutting
oil.

So, I need to find a more suitable mill for this, I assume only 1 or 2
flute, and maybe only 1/8" of working bit.

Since I don't have a 10,000 rpm spindle, 2500 is it, what mill should I
buy, and how fast can I feed it? Or am I doomed to go find some harder
sheet alu that cuts cleaner and won't plug up a mill?

Thanks.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions
he is able to answer.
-- Ronald Colman
doug metzler
2012-02-13 01:36:44 UTC
Permalink
I've had good luck with the high-spiral (aluminum specific) 2-flute
cutters, but have not gone below 1/8" The cutters only have about
3/8" of cutting depth. Something like McMaster 8829A12?

DougM
Post by gene heskett
Hi Guys;
I just broke my last brand new 1/16th carbide end mill in about 15 minutes
running time, a 4 flute with about 1/2" of working length, trying to get
started on another alu encoder wheel, getting about 80% of the way around
the outside, running at 2500 revs, and 1.5 ipm, cutting only .005" deep,
running in a puddle of cutting oil.
Obviously the 4 flute is a no-no in soft alu as it was pushing alu ahead of
itself for 90% of what it did cut which tells me it was half plugged after
the first 1/2" of feed in that heavy duty (0.0037" thick) coors can alu .
Filled up the flutes nearly instantly even if it was swimming in cutting
oil.
So, I need to find a more suitable mill for this, I assume only 1 or 2
flute, and maybe only 1/8" of working bit.
Since I don't have a 10,000 rpm spindle, 2500 is it, what mill should I
buy, and how fast can I feed it?  Or am I doomed to go find some harder
sheet alu that cuts cleaner and won't plug up a mill?
Thanks.
Cheers, Gene
--
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions
he is able to answer.
               -- Ronald Colman
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gene heskett
2012-02-13 03:50:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by doug metzler
I've had good luck with the high-spiral (aluminum specific) 2-flute
cutters, but have not gone below 1/8" The cutters only have about
3/8" of cutting depth. Something like McMaster 8829A12?
DougM
I found the 1/16" version, but at $35 a copy, nope. 8515A21 is still
$12.50 copy. Supposedly their best TiCN coated stuff.

I'll ring up Hemlytool tomorrow & see what they have. I've always gotten
decent tools at a decent price from them.
Post by doug metzler
Post by gene heskett
Hi Guys;
I just broke my last brand new 1/16th carbide end mill in about 15
minutes running time, a 4 flute with about 1/2" of working length,
trying to get started on another alu encoder wheel, getting about 80%
of the way around the outside, running at 2500 revs, and 1.5 ipm,
cutting only .005" deep, running in a puddle of cutting oil.
Obviously the 4 flute is a no-no in soft alu as it was pushing alu
ahead of itself for 90% of what it did cut which tells me it was half
plugged after the first 1/2" of feed in that heavy duty (0.0037"
thick) coors can alu . Filled up the flutes nearly instantly even if
it was swimming in cutting oil.
So, I need to find a more suitable mill for this, I assume only 1 or 2
flute, and maybe only 1/8" of working bit.
Since I don't have a 10,000 rpm spindle, 2500 is it, what mill should
I buy, and how fast can I feed it? Or am I doomed to go find some
harder sheet alu that cuts cleaner and won't plug up a mill?
Thanks.
Cheers, Gene
--
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of
questions he is able to answer.
-- Ronald Colman
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Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
And do you think (fop that I am) that I could be the Scarlet Pumpernickel?
Dean Hedin
2012-02-13 05:00:19 UTC
Permalink
Check out shars.com
I think they have high helix 2 flute aluminum bits at pretty good prices.
Also the long cutting area is why they are breaking. Get a stubby length.
gene heskett
2012-02-13 05:39:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dean Hedin
Check out shars.com
I think they have high helix 2 flute aluminum bits at pretty good
prices. Also the long cutting area is why they are breaking. Get a
stubby length.
I Think they have them, but they refuse to show them to me as a general
rule. I did find one page of 1/4" and up stuff that worked, but most of it
was an empty screen at the end of the link.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
hard, adj.:
The quality of your own data; also how it is to believe those
of other people.
Mark Cason
2012-02-13 05:51:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by Dean Hedin
Check out shars.com
I think they have high helix 2 flute aluminum bits at pretty good
prices. Also the long cutting area is why they are breaking. Get a
stubby length.
I Think they have them, but they refuse to show them to me as a general
rule. I did find one page of 1/4" and up stuff that worked, but most of it
was an empty screen at the end of the link.
Cheers, Gene
I have their 2011/12 catalog, and it shows 1/8" as their smallest high
helix carbide cutter.
--
-Mark

Ne M'oubliez ---Family Motto
Hope for the best, plan for the worst ---Personal Motto
gene heskett
2012-02-13 06:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Cason
Post by gene heskett
Post by Dean Hedin
Check out shars.com
I think they have high helix 2 flute aluminum bits at pretty good
prices. Also the long cutting area is why they are breaking. Get a
stubby length.
I Think they have them, but they refuse to show them to me as a
general rule. I did find one page of 1/4" and up stuff that worked,
but most of it was an empty screen at the end of the link.
Cheers, Gene
I have their 2011/12 catalog, and it shows 1/8" as their smallest high
helix carbide cutter.
If the price is good, then it might worth downloading the catalog, but its
about 150 megs so I killed that download. Is the price right? say under
$15/copy? Oh wait, you said 1/8 was the smallest. Won't work.

Thanks Mark.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
<aav> coffee on an empty stomach is pretty nasy
<knghtbrd> aav: time to run to the vending machine for cheetos
<aav> cheetos? :)
Mark Cason
2012-02-13 07:24:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by Mark Cason
I have their 2011/12 catalog, and it shows 1/8" as their smallest high
helix carbide cutter.
If the price is good, then it might worth downloading the catalog, but its
about 150 megs so I killed that download. Is the price right? say under
$15/copy? Oh wait, you said 1/8 was the smallest. Won't work.
Thanks Mark.
Cheers, Gene
The PDF on their site is the old 2010/11 catalog. I have a paper
copy. They have some 2 flute solid carbide end mills.

Regular length - 1/16" dia x 1/4" flute length. 1/8" shank x 1-1/2"
overall length:
uncoated - 415-0970 - $5.67
ALTIN coated - 415-1007 - $6.51

Stub length - 1/16" dia x 1/8" flute length. 1/8" shank x 1-1/2" OAL:
uncoated - 415-0398 - $4.03
ALTIN coated - 415-0415 - $5.26

3xDiameter Miniature - 0.062" dia x 0.186" flute length. 0.125" shank x
1-1/2" OAL:
uncoated - 415-2232 - $9.18
ALTIN coated 415-2286 - $11.03

1.5xD Miniature - 0.062" dia x 0.093" flute length. 0.125" shank x
1-1/2" OAL:
uncoated - 415-2871 - $10.57
ALTIN coated - 415-2896 - $12.68

You should be able to type the part #'s into their site. When you order
something in a medium sized, or larger box, they drop in a catalog.
Hope this helps.
--
-Mark

Ne M'oubliez ---Family Motto
Hope for the best, plan for the worst ---Personal Motto
gene heskett
2012-02-13 12:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Cason
Post by gene heskett
Post by Mark Cason
I have their 2011/12 catalog, and it shows 1/8" as their smallest
high helix carbide cutter.
If the price is good, then it might worth downloading the catalog, but
its about 150 megs so I killed that download. Is the price right?
say under $15/copy? Oh wait, you said 1/8 was the smallest. Won't
work.
Thanks Mark.
Cheers, Gene
The PDF on their site is the old 2010/11 catalog. I have a paper
copy. They have some 2 flute solid carbide end mills.
Regular length - 1/16" dia x 1/4" flute length. 1/8" shank x 1-1/2"
uncoated - 415-0970 - $5.67
ALTIN coated - 415-1007 - $6.51
uncoated - 415-0398 - $4.03
ALTIN coated - 415-0415 - $5.26
This one sounds good, I'll get a 5 pack if its in stock, yet today. Those
longer ones are wayyyy too fragile in the hands of a dummy like me.
Post by Mark Cason
3xDiameter Miniature - 0.062" dia x 0.186" flute length. 0.125" shank x
uncoated - 415-2232 - $9.18
ALTIN coated 415-2286 - $11.03
1.5xD Miniature - 0.062" dia x 0.093" flute length. 0.125" shank x
uncoated - 415-2871 - $10.57
ALTIN coated - 415-2896 - $12.68
You should be able to type the part #'s into their site. When you order
something in a medium sized, or larger box, they drop in a catalog.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Mark.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
There's an old proverb that says just about whatever you want it to.
Dean Hedin
2012-02-14 02:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Yep, sorry, thought they had the high helix in the small size.
They do have pretty good prices otherwise. I've bought quite a bit of stuff
from them in the past and had good experience. - NVI

Get the short flute length if you can tolerate it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Cason [mailto:***@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 2:24 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Need advice on 1/16" end mill
Post by gene heskett
Post by Mark Cason
I have their 2011/12 catalog, and it shows 1/8" as their smallest high
helix carbide cutter.
If the price is good, then it might worth downloading the catalog, but its
about 150 megs so I killed that download. Is the price right? say under
$15/copy? Oh wait, you said 1/8 was the smallest. Won't work.
Thanks Mark.
Cheers, Gene
The PDF on their site is the old 2010/11 catalog. I have a paper
copy. They have some 2 flute solid carbide end mills.

Regular length - 1/16" dia x 1/4" flute length. 1/8" shank x 1-1/2"
overall length:
uncoated - 415-0970 - $5.67
ALTIN coated - 415-1007 - $6.51

Stub length - 1/16" dia x 1/8" flute length. 1/8" shank x 1-1/2" OAL:
uncoated - 415-0398 - $4.03
ALTIN coated - 415-0415 - $5.26

3xDiameter Miniature - 0.062" dia x 0.186" flute length. 0.125" shank x
1-1/2" OAL:
uncoated - 415-2232 - $9.18
ALTIN coated 415-2286 - $11.03

1.5xD Miniature - 0.062" dia x 0.093" flute length. 0.125" shank x
1-1/2" OAL:
uncoated - 415-2871 - $10.57
ALTIN coated - 415-2896 - $12.68

You should be able to type the part #'s into their site. When you order
something in a medium sized, or larger box, they drop in a catalog.
Hope this helps.
--
-Mark

Ne M'oubliez ---Family Motto
Hope for the best, plan for the worst ---Personal Motto


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gene heskett
2012-02-14 04:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dean Hedin
Yep, sorry, thought they had the high helix in the small size.
They do have pretty good prices otherwise. I've bought quite a bit of
stuff from them in the past and had good experience. - NVI
Get the short flute length if you can tolerate it.
Well, I've fooled around and lost today running down some suitable brass
for the next attempt, but I'll get some ordered tomorrow, as short as they
have.

Thanks Dean.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Heisenberg may have been here.
Jon Elson
2012-02-13 05:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Hi Guys;
I just broke my last brand new 1/16th carbide end mill in about 15 minutes
running time, a 4 flute with about 1/2" of working length, trying to get
started on another alu encoder wheel, getting about 80% of the way around
the outside, running at 2500 revs, and 1.5 ipm, cutting only .005" deep,
running in a puddle of cutting oil.
Obviously the 4 flute is a no-no in soft alu as it was pushing alu ahead of
itself for 90% of what it did cut which tells me it was half plugged after
the first 1/2" of feed in that heavy duty (0.0037" thick) coors can alu .
Filled up the flutes nearly instantly even if it was swimming in cutting
oil.
So, I need to find a more suitable mill for this, I assume only 1 or 2
flute, and maybe only 1/8" of working bit.
You ought to be able to do this. I use water-based coolant. The trick
is to keep the
WORK cold, and I do mean COLD where the cutting is going on. You should
up the feed rate and/or make it in several passes, stepping down in Z
each pass.
1.5 IPM is way too slow. At 2500 RPM with 4 flutes, that is 10,000
cutting edges
per minute. So, each tooth is only cutting .00015", which is WAY too small.
My McDonnell-Douglas slide rule suggests a .00062" feed per tooth, so
that would be 6.2 IPM. You should only plunge 1/32" per pass with a 1/16"
cutter (half the tool diameter).

I use a 4-flute cutter in aluminum ALL the time, rarely use a 2-flute.
You should be climb milling, this causes much less rubbing and therefore
heat
generation. Climb milling causes the cutter to plunge directly into the
un-cut
material, conventional milling causes the cutter to slide across the
already-cut
surface until there is enough pressure to penetrate it. That rubbing causes
heating of the workpiece, which makes the aluminum soft.
Post by gene heskett
Since I don't have a 10,000 rpm spindle, 2500 is it, what mill should I
buy, and how fast can I feed it? Or am I doomed to go find some harder
sheet alu that cuts cleaner and won't plug up a mill?
Just keep it COLD, and it will cut fine, as long as it isn't 1000
aluminum or
something meant only to feed into an extruder. That's the beauty of
water-based
coolants, the evaporation of the water really cools stuff off.

Wait, you're only cutting .005" deep per pass??? WHY? I might tend to go
a bit less than half the tool diameter, but that is too conservative even
for HSS, and way too conservative for carbide. If you insist on such small
Z plunge, you should be cutting this at 20 IPM or something!

I don't have much experience with 1/16" carbide end mills, but use
1/8"carbide
4-flute mills as one of my most standard cutters for .060 - .125" aluminum
panels. I frequently run a whole day on one cutter. And, I do it usually
at about 2800 RPM.

If the wad of aluminum around the cutter develops, you are already sunk,
you have to avoid the softening of the material.

Jon
gene heskett
2012-02-13 06:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Elson
Post by gene heskett
Hi Guys;
I just broke my last brand new 1/16th carbide end mill in about 15
minutes running time, a 4 flute with about 1/2" of working length,
trying to get started on another alu encoder wheel, getting about 80%
of the way around the outside, running at 2500 revs, and 1.5 ipm,
cutting only .005" deep, running in a puddle of cutting oil.
Obviously the 4 flute is a no-no in soft alu as it was pushing alu
ahead of itself for 90% of what it did cut which tells me it was half
plugged after the first 1/2" of feed in that heavy duty (0.0037"
thick) coors can alu . Filled up the flutes nearly instantly even if
it was swimming in cutting oil.
So, I need to find a more suitable mill for this, I assume only 1 or 2
flute, and maybe only 1/8" of working bit.
You ought to be able to do this. I use water-based coolant. The trick
is to keep the
WORK cold, and I do mean COLD where the cutting is going on. You should
up the feed rate and/or make it in several passes, stepping down in Z
each pass.
1.5 IPM is way too slow. At 2500 RPM with 4 flutes, that is 10,000
cutting edges
per minute. So, each tooth is only cutting .00015", which is WAY too
small. My McDonnell-Douglas slide rule suggests a .00062" feed per
tooth, so that would be 6.2 IPM. You should only plunge 1/32" per pass
with a 1/16" cutter (half the tool diameter).
I use a 4-flute cutter in aluminum ALL the time, rarely use a 2-flute.
You should be climb milling, this causes much less rubbing and therefore
heat
generation. Climb milling causes the cutter to plunge directly into the
un-cut
material, conventional milling causes the cutter to slide across the
already-cut
surface until there is enough pressure to penetrate it. That rubbing
causes heating of the workpiece, which makes the aluminum soft.
Post by gene heskett
Since I don't have a 10,000 rpm spindle, 2500 is it, what mill should
I buy, and how fast can I feed it? Or am I doomed to go find some
harder sheet alu that cuts cleaner and won't plug up a mill?
Just keep it COLD, and it will cut fine, as long as it isn't 1000
aluminum or
something meant only to feed into an extruder. That's the beauty of
water-based
coolants, the evaporation of the water really cools stuff off.
Wait, you're only cutting .005" deep per pass??? WHY?
This particular sheet of alu seems to be dead soft. The chips it was
making looked about the right size spinning around in the oil.

I don't have water out there other than used. :) And no real drainage
system exists although I have considered just setting the whole mill into a
pan about an inch deep, if I could find a suitable pan.
Post by Jon Elson
I might tend to
go a bit less than half the tool diameter, but that is too conservative
even for HSS, and way too conservative for carbide. If you insist on
such small Z plunge, you should be cutting this at 20 IPM or something!
I don't have much experience with 1/16" carbide end mills, but use
1/8"carbide
4-flute mills as one of my most standard cutters for .060 - .125"
aluminum panels. I frequently run a whole day on one cutter. And, I
do it usually at about 2800 RPM.
If the wad of aluminum around the cutter develops, you are already sunk,
you have to avoid the softening of the material.
Running under cutting oil, about 1/16" deep, is a shop that's showing 51F,
really s/b cold enough. There was no heat or smoke, it simply stopped
cutting and well before I could hit the button, it had bent about 40 thou
and went ping, with no clue where it went. I was digging what was
effectively a straight ahead ditch 1/16th wide, and at 5 thou deep, there
are 30 thou fins sticking up all over what it did before the ping.

I would probably be time & screwing around ahead of the game to see if I
have a big enough piece left from the last brass door kickplate to make
this. There's no reason I couldn't make it from a plastic, like formica,
except that stuff is shipped rolled up and is not capable of ever being
flattened again. I need flat stock that won't wobble.

I cut the first one, whose slots it turned out weren't long enough, in a
much harder sheet of alu, cutting in two passes all the way through a .0625
sheet, with an identical bit from the same order. But that is almost too
thick for these opto's slots, hence the attempt to cut a thinner one.

I have also rerouted the board to make it much easier to assemble, so I'll
probably make another board which will allow me to stand the Z sensor high
enough to catch the z slot in the outer rim, otherwise the hole circle is
so small that when the A/B sensors are about right, the z sensor is
completely missing the edge of the wheel, a good 1/8" outside of the Z
slot.

So I am gradually getting eagle figured out. Next board might be even
better if I can keep a fine bead on Murphy. He and I know each other well,
but that doesn't mean we're friends. :)

Thanks Jon.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
Erik Christiansen
2012-02-13 07:38:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
This particular sheet of alu seems to be dead soft. The chips it was
making looked about the right size spinning around in the oil.
I don't have water out there other than used. :) And no real drainage
system exists although I have considered just setting the whole mill into a
pan about an inch deep, if I could find a suitable pan.
Gene, if milling that shiny toffee is the only game in town, and there's
neither water nor drainage, then what about methylated spirits in a good
spray bottle? Lots of that should cool well, and evaporate.

The one time I milled soft Al sheet was once too often. The swarf welds
back onto the workpiece, the way I go at it. Definitely needs coolant,
but it's still masochism.

Do you have an unloved diecast box, or larger aluminium-ish cast
enclosure, with a sufficiently thick section that you can hack out? I've
found that milling cast Al can be done without coolant, and without
toffee-like tackiness. The swarf comes off cleanly, but a bit of metho
spray can help prevent eventual build-up.

Erik
Post by gene heskett
Running under cutting oil, about 1/16" deep, is a shop that's showing 51F,
really s/b cold enough.
My experience is limited, but for me, the oil just helps to keep the
swarf near the tool, and even drag it back between the tool and
workpiece. Perhaps I should have used a higher spindle speed, but it's a
pain to shuffle the belts on the 3/4 ton mill.

Soft Al is only good for melting down together with a bit of copper and
a bit of zinc, to make an alloy we can machine, I think.

Erik
--
While you don't greatly need the outside world, it's still very
reassuring to know that it's still there.
gene heskett
2012-02-13 12:19:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Christiansen
Post by gene heskett
This particular sheet of alu seems to be dead soft. The chips it was
making looked about the right size spinning around in the oil.
I don't have water out there other than used. :) And no real drainage
system exists although I have considered just setting the whole mill
into a pan about an inch deep, if I could find a suitable pan.
Gene, if milling that shiny toffee is the only game in town, and there's
neither water nor drainage, then what about methylated spirits in a good
spray bottle? Lots of that should cool well, and evaporate.
The one time I milled soft Al sheet was once too often. The swarf welds
back onto the workpiece, the way I go at it. Definitely needs coolant,
but it's still masochism.
Do you have an unloved diecast box, or larger aluminium-ish cast
enclosure, with a sufficiently thick section that you can hack out? I've
found that milling cast Al can be done without coolant, and without
toffee-like tackiness. The swarf comes off cleanly, but a bit of metho
spray can help prevent eventual build-up.
Erik
Post by gene heskett
Running under cutting oil, about 1/16" deep, is a shop that's showing
51F, really s/b cold enough.
My experience is limited, but for me, the oil just helps to keep the
swarf near the tool, and even drag it back between the tool and
workpiece. Perhaps I should have used a higher spindle speed, but it's a
pain to shuffle the belts on the 3/4 ton mill.
Soft Al is only good for melting down together with a bit of copper and
a bit of zinc, to make an alloy we can machine, I think.
Erik
Chuckle, I believe that may be the best solution yet for this crap. ;-)

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Where am I? Who am I? Am I? I
Jon Elson
2012-02-13 17:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
This particular sheet of alu seems to be dead soft. The chips it was
making looked about the right size spinning around in the oil.
Well, that may be the problem. You do NOT want to keep recutting the same
chips. You want a steady stream of something to remove the chips. In
some cases
an air jet can be used, too.
Post by gene heskett
I don't have water out there other than used. :) And no real drainage
system exists although I have considered just setting the whole mill into a
pan about an inch deep, if I could find a suitable pan.
OK, my Bridgeport has primitive drain basins at the end of the T slots,
I return
the coolant to the tank with hoses. If this is a desktop mill, you
could probably
find a plastic tray at the discount store that would suffice.
Post by gene heskett
Running under cutting oil, about 1/16" deep, is a shop that's showing 51F,
really s/b cold enough.
But, the extreme slow feedrates cause localized heating. It is MUCH
better to
sip along on a fine cut than crawl along a deeper one, as the heat doesn't
build up in the work that way.

I still don't understand the 1.5 IPM feedrate, that is way too slow.
Now, maybe
the gummy nature of this aluminum is such that it can't be cut at all.
But, I think
this slow feedrate is making things much worse.

Maybe the long length of cut of this tool is the problem as others have
mentioned.

Jon
charles green
2012-02-13 05:16:54 UTC
Permalink
gene heskett
2012-02-13 06:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
some right angle dremel tool attachments have flat sides that can be
clamped to other things. there are also air powered pencil die
grinders that have been adapted as high rpm spindles.
for cutting thin sheets, an exacto knife could be chucked up to use the
spindle as the rotating element of a swivel knife arrangement.
disengage any drive to spindle so it rotates freely, and plan the tool
path so the knife point follows around like a shopping cart wheel.
in certain cases, the axis movement motors are capable of providing the
useful work energy without any help from a spindle motor. for example,
a knurling wheel will work in a neutral spindle, letting the spindle
rotate by the friction of the wheel rolling along the work surface.
for cutting aluminum can material, a ball point pen run over the cut
line many times against a hard backing surface will produce a breakable
score.
This stuff is 0.037" thick, and is intended to be the slotted wheel used
with opto-interrupters to sense a lathes spindle position as it rotates.
Roland seems to know how to make the swivel knife work well in their
plotters & cutters, but I'd have no clue how to modify the gcode that
carves this in order to get the level of precision needed.

Thanks Charles.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
I saw Lassie. It took me four shows to figure out why the hairy kid never
spoke. I mean, he could roll over and all that, but did that deserve a
series?
Greg Bernard
2012-02-13 07:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Gene-
Sounds like your problem is mostly due to the crappy aluminum. I had that happen this weekend cutting an aluminum sign using customer supplied material. I did a dry run with a .07 2 flute in some 6061 alloy (which cuts without coolant just fine at ~20,000 rpm)  and all was well. When I went to cut the job the bit loaded up immediately. So I ended up using an 1/8" bit cutting with a flood of  WD-40 and settling for the larger radius in the corners. Gummy aluminum sucks.
Have you considered using brass for your wheel? Nearly every hobby shop carries the K&S brass sheets. I believe it's all 360 brass which machines beautifully.  Plus, it's very easy to blacken it.
Post by gene heskett
________________________________
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Need advice on 1/16" end mill
Post by gene heskett
some right angle dremel tool attachments have flat sides that can be
clamped to other things.  there are also air powered pencil die
grinders that have been adapted as high rpm spindles. 
for cutting thin sheets, an exacto knife could be chucked up to use the
spindle as the rotating element of a swivel knife arrangement.
disengage any drive to spindle so it rotates freely, and plan the tool
path so the knife point follows around like a shopping cart wheel.
in certain cases, the axis movement motors are capable of providing the
useful work energy without any help from a spindle motor.  for example,
a knurling wheel will work in a neutral spindle, letting the spindle
rotate by the friction of the wheel rolling along the work surface.
for cutting aluminum can material, a ball point pen run over the cut
line many times against a hard backing surface will produce a breakable
score.
This stuff is 0.037" thick, and is intended to be the slotted wheel used
with opto-interrupters to sense a lathes spindle position as it rotates. 
Roland seems to know how to make the swivel knife work well in their
plotters & cutters, but I'd have no clue how to modify the gcode that
carves this in order to get the level of precision needed.
Thanks Charles.
Cheers, Gene
--
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
I saw Lassie.  It took me four shows to figure out why the hairy kid never
spoke. I mean, he could roll over and all that, but did that deserve a
series?
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gene heskett
2012-02-13 12:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Bernard
Gene-
Sounds like your problem is mostly due to the crappy aluminum. I had
that happen this weekend cutting an aluminum sign using customer
supplied material. I did a dry run with a .07 2 flute in some 6061
alloy (which cuts without coolant just fine at ~20,000 rpm) and all
was well. When I went to cut the job the bit loaded up immediately. So
I ended up using an 1/8" bit cutting with a flood of WD-40 and
settling for the larger radius in the corners. Gummy aluminum sucks.
Have you considered using brass for your wheel? Nearly every hobby shop
carries the K&S brass sheets. I believe it's all 360 brass which
machines beautifully. Plus, it's very easy to blacken it.
That sounds precisely like what I need. And I know where to get that
almost locally, 50 mile round trip.

I don't think I need to blacken it since this is transmission mode stuff.

Thanks for the reminder. I have some brass door kick plate I think, but I
tried to engrave some name plates and found that no two sheets of it
machine the same. The first one did a beautiful job & sold the name plate
idea, but the next sheet was a little gummy & threw up ridges. And its
that stuff I have half a sheet of.

Good idea. Thanks again.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
YOW!! What should the entire human race DO?? Consume a fifth of
CHIVAS REGAL, ski NUDE down MT. EVEREST, and have a wild SEX WEEKEND!
gene heskett
2012-02-12 19:50:00 UTC
Permalink
some right angle dremel tool attachments have flat sides that can be clamped to other things.  there are also air powered pencil die grinders that have been adapted as high rpm spindles. 
 
for cutting thin sheets, an exacto knife could be chucked up to use the spindle as the rotating element of a swivel knife arrangement.  disengage any drive to spindle so it rotates freely, and plan the tool path so the knife point follows around like a shopping cart wheel.
 
in certain cases, the axis movement motors are capable of providing the useful work energy without any help from a spindle motor.  for example, a knurling wheel will work in a neutral spindle, letting the spindle rotate by the friction of the wheel rolling along the work surface.

for cutting aluminum can material, a ball point pen run over the cut line many times against a hard backing surface will produce a breakable score.
 

--- On Sun, 2/12/12, gene heskett <***@wdtv.com> wrote:


From: gene heskett <***@wdtv.com>
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Need advice on 1/16" end mill
To: emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Sunday, February 12, 2012, 7:50 PM
Post by doug metzler
I've had good luck with the high-spiral (aluminum specific) 2-flute
cutters, but have not gone below 1/8"  The cutters only have about
3/8" of cutting depth.  Something like McMaster 8829A12?
DougM
I found the 1/16" version, but at $35 a copy, nope.  8515A21 is still
$12.50 copy.  Supposedly their best TiCN coated stuff.

I'll ring up Hemlytool tomorrow & see what they have.  I've always gotten
decent tools at a decent price from them.
Post by doug metzler
Post by gene heskett
Hi Guys;
I just broke my last brand new 1/16th carbide end mill in about 15
minutes running time, a 4 flute with about 1/2" of working length,
trying to get started on another alu encoder wheel, getting about 80%
of the way around the outside, running at 2500 revs, and 1.5 ipm,
cutting only .005" deep, running in a puddle of cutting oil.
Obviously the 4 flute is a no-no in soft alu as it was pushing alu
ahead of itself for 90% of what it did cut which tells me it was half
plugged after the first 1/2" of feed in that heavy duty (0.0037"
thick) coors can alu . Filled up the flutes nearly instantly even if
it was swimming in cutting oil.
So, I need to find a more suitable mill for this, I assume only 1 or 2
flute, and maybe only 1/8" of working bit.
Since I don't have a 10,000 rpm spindle, 2500 is it, what mill should
I buy, and how fast can I feed it?  Or am I doomed to go find some
harder sheet alu that cuts cleaner and won't plug up a mill?
Thanks.
Cheers, Gene
--
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of
questions he is able to answer.
                -- Ronald Colman
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Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
And do you think (fop that I am) that I could be the Scarlet Pumpernickel?
andy pugh
2012-02-13 10:06:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
So, I need to find a more suitable mill for this, I assume only 1 or 2
flute, and maybe only 1/8" of working bit.
Can you use 1.5mm and afford to wait a week or so?
http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-386/TiAlN-Coated-Tungsten-Micrograin/Detail
--
atp
The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong.
gene heskett
2012-02-13 12:25:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by andy pugh
Post by gene heskett
So, I need to find a more suitable mill for this, I assume only 1 or 2
flute, and maybe only 1/8" of working bit.
Can you use 1.5mm and afford to wait a week or so?
http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-386/TiAlN-Coated-Tungsten-Micrograin
/Detail
Looks like those have metric shafts too & I don't have a collet set to fit
them. Wrong side of the pond. Good prices though.

Thanks Andy.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Endless the world's turn, endless the sun's spinning
Endless the quest;
I turn again, back to my own beginning,
And here, find rest.
charles green
2012-02-13 11:10:20 UTC
Permalink
gene heskett
2012-02-13 12:26:58 UTC
Permalink
danger! the coated tools are terrible on aluminum. the coating has a
micro roughness that nucleates chip welding of soft aluminum. coatings
are good for lubricity of hard material chips against the cutter, but a
mirror smooth surface is best for carbide in aluminum.
Good to keep in mind too, thanks Charles.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Is it NOUVELLE CUISINE when 3 olives are struggling with a scallop in a
plate of SAUCE MORNAY?
andy pugh
2012-02-13 02:06:00 UTC
Permalink
danger!  the coated tools are terrible on aluminum.  the coating has a micro roughness that nucleates chip welding of soft aluminum.  coatings are good for lubricity of hard material chips against the cutter, but a mirror smooth surface is best for carbide in aluminum.

--- On Mon, 2/13/12, andy pugh <***@gmail.com> wrote:


From: andy pugh <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Need advice on 1/16" end mill
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 2:06 AM
Post by gene heskett
So, I need to find a more suitable mill for this, I assume only 1 or 2
flute, and maybe only 1/8" of working bit.
Can you use 1.5mm and afford to wait a week or so?
http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-386/TiAlN-Coated-Tungsten-Micrograin/Detail
--
atp
The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong.
Bruce Klawiter
2012-02-13 13:59:42 UTC
Permalink
I do a ton of work with small cutters and in aluminum, I use a coolant mister with alcohol, I use as much air as possible and just enough alcohol to keep the part wet. The parts feel like they were in the freezer when I am done.
As Jon said keep the work cold.

Bruce
gene heskett
2012-02-13 18:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Klawiter
I do a ton of work with small cutters and in aluminum, I use a coolant
mister with alcohol, I use as much air as possible and just enough
alcohol to keep the part wet. The parts feel like they were in the
freezer when I am done. As Jon said keep the work cold.
Bruce
Guy's, maybe I don't understand cutting alu as well as I thought.

All along, I have believed that it was more important to keep the oxygen in
the air away from the cutting surface in order to slow the formation of alu
oxide on the surface, which in normal air, not blown, can get a good start
in 0.001 seconds or less behind the cutting tools edge as alu is a VERY
active metal, oxidizing (rusting of ferrous material is exactly the same
reaction at a rate millions of times slower than the alu rate) very
rapidly, and its this thin film of oxide that is its own protective
barrier, putting out the fire so to speak. This oxide is also the 2nd
hardest substance known to man and can take the edge off a carbide tool
that has to cut thru it in seconds under the right set of wrong cutting
params, which my slow feed made worse. Dig cutting being worse in this
regard.

Sealing the cut surface against the air and its oxygen, blown or otherwise,
that causes this instant alu oxide film with its subsequent wear on the
cutting tool has always been the reason for my use of a cutting oil, deep
enough to flood and seal the surface, or misted, particularly when I don't
have the spindle rpms to throw it away from the cut. Misting works better
because it blows the cut chips away, preventing recut damages on the
surface. But my air compressor is outside and I didn't want to throw off
the tarp and open the shop door so I could plug it in.

Consider also that the higher rpm spindles put the cutting edges past the
cut surface so fast that the only alu oxide they see is on the original
surface before the cut and doesn't have much of a chance to reform before
the cutting tool has moved on.

The majority of the heat you are referring to is not the heat of the tools
cutting action, but is the result of the chemical reaction that forms this
alu oxide film so rapidly. So my theory has always been to seal the oxygen
away from the cut surface as well as you can with whatever you can that is
not oxygen bearing. Some oils, including the particular cutting oil I
used, can have quite a bit of available oxygen & therefore will not be as
effective as one would think at slowing this 'rusting' reaction.

Based on that same theory, it would be my contention that if you were to
hook a bottle of dry nitrogen up to that mister, and arrange a cover over
the workpiece so as to contain it, totally excluding the air, (this isn't
at all healthy for the machine operator for obvious reasons) then it should
be possible to machine alu with excellent tool life even running dry. Any
noble gas would do, but dry nitrogen is generally an almost let it vent
gas, saving only what they can sell, in the grand scheme of trying to make
a profit from an air reduction facility, so nitrogen is, compared to the
other gasses, dirt cheap.

However, unless you have your own air reduction facility, the cost of the
dry nitrogen would exceed the cost of the tooling saved, which puts this
theory into the real world as practical only for the most critical work.
Worth it only to the extent this cost can be passed on to the customer.

Now, I an not enough of a chemist to know how well an alcohol mist keeping
it wet would function, but if it was truly being kept wet and sealed so
there was little or no chance of the oxygen in the air supply actually
getting to it until the machining is completed, its possible that this
could be close to the ultimate, effective AND cheap method.

FWIW, this rapid oxidation is one of the reasons powdered alu is used in
some explosives, fireworks being one that comes to mind.

Its entirely possible that my choice of cutting oils (comes in a quart
plastic container labeled 'Cutting Oil' from ACE Hdwe in this case) was
actually not a very good product for this usage as it had lots of free
oxygen. Obtaining this sort of info off the label of a plastic container
of a product normally sold as a pipe thread cutter lubricant simply isn't
going to be done as that isn't deemed important enough to list amongst the
other carnival barker text on the back panel.

Its also possible that because there is available oxygen in this particular
oil, and that combined with the slowness of the cut, that my tool was
actually swimming in what gradually turned into a mud that was not alu, but
nearly pure oxide, wearing the tool just as if I'd spun it by hand on a
green wheel. Finding the broken off piece and giving it a good look under
a microscope would tell that tale.

So we each are left to be doomed to finding a method that seems to work,
and often without a real, controlled condition set of test results to guide
us. Obviously I found one that didn't work. :( I was using the slow feed
rate to reduce the deflection of a 1/2" long 1/16", 4 flute, upcut spiral
TiCN coated tool, it was the only one I had on the shelf at the time. And
a .005" deep cut for the same reason, figuring on multiple passes to do the
whole thing. With a 1/8" long bit I would have pushed it 6 or 8x faster.
But that's me, making excuses to explain my failure too, so everybody knows
that I know most of the "why".

Is there some other, even more important condition we need to maintain at
the cutters edge other than an oxygen free environment?

This to me, seems like the single, perhaps even 'only' in comparison with
other effects, important item when machining alu. Or any other highly
reactive material, but alu is about 10,000x worse than all the others
commonly used.

Has anyone with a machining center with relatively tightly closing doors
ever checked this out by closing the doors and bleeding only nitrogen thru
the misters instead of using compressed shop air with a cutting fluid?

Its my belief you would be surprised at the tool life obtained, and with
the quality of the finish too. You should, as the doors open, see the
dulling effect on the finish, the result of the air finally getting to it.

That is my take on it. How right or wrong am I?

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
If time heals all wounds, how come the belly button stays the same?
Roland Jollivet
2012-02-13 19:21:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by Bruce Klawiter
I do a ton of work with small cutters and in aluminum, I use a coolant
mister with alcohol, I use as much air as possible and just enough
alcohol to keep the part wet. The parts feel like they were in the
freezer when I am done. As Jon said keep the work cold.
Bruce
Guy's, maybe I don't understand cutting alu as well as I thought.
All along, I have believed that it was more important to keep the oxygen in
the air away from the cutting surface in order to slow the formation of alu
oxide on the surface, which in normal air, not blown, can get a good start
in 0.001 seconds or less behind the cutting tools edge as alu is a VERY
active metal, oxidizing (rusting of ferrous material is exactly the same
reaction at a rate millions of times slower than the alu rate) very
rapidly, and its this thin film of oxide that is its own protective
barrier, putting out the fire so to speak. This oxide is also the 2nd
hardest substance known to man and can take the edge off a carbide tool
that has to cut thru it in seconds under the right set of wrong cutting
params, which my slow feed made worse. Dig cutting being worse in this
regard.
Sealing the cut surface against the air and its oxygen, blown or otherwise,
that causes this instant alu oxide film with its subsequent wear on the
cutting tool has always been the reason for my use of a cutting oil, deep
enough to flood and seal the surface, or misted, particularly when I don't
have the spindle rpms to throw it away from the cut. Misting works better
because it blows the cut chips away, preventing recut damages on the
surface. But my air compressor is outside and I didn't want to throw off
the tarp and open the shop door so I could plug it in.
Consider also that the higher rpm spindles put the cutting edges past the
cut surface so fast that the only alu oxide they see is on the original
surface before the cut and doesn't have much of a chance to reform before
the cutting tool has moved on.
The majority of the heat you are referring to is not the heat of the tools
cutting action, but is the result of the chemical reaction that forms this
alu oxide film so rapidly. So my theory has always been to seal the oxygen
away from the cut surface as well as you can with whatever you can that is
not oxygen bearing. Some oils, including the particular cutting oil I
used, can have quite a bit of available oxygen & therefore will not be as
effective as one would think at slowing this 'rusting' reaction.
..snip

I would imagine... that the oxide layer is way way thinner than a micron in
thickness, and while tough as you say, in climb milling the cutter tip will
hit the metal and with the eggshell effect, simply push past the oxide
layer.

I think that if this was a general problem, it would recieve more alerts in
industry, although some shopfitting sections which are already anodised, do
take their toll on the saw blades.

Regards
Roland
gene heskett
2012-02-13 19:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Jollivet
..snip
I would imagine... that the oxide layer is way way thinner than a micron
in thickness, and while tough as you say, in climb milling the cutter
tip will hit the metal and with the eggshell effect, simply push past
the oxide layer.
In electronics, my specialty, we have a tendency to rate this oxide film by
its voltage withstand capability, which in the above mentioned .001 seconds
is about 40 volts. This insulation BTW is perfect, and is considered to be
degraded if a single electron succeeds in penetrating it. Leave it out in
the 19% oxygen air for a few weeks, or help it along with a hydroxide bath
and it can exceed 400 volts. That is quite a bit more than a micron
although I don't have a thickness/voltage conversion table handy ATM.
Post by Roland Jollivet
I think that if this was a general problem, it would receive more alerts
in industry, although some shopfitting sections which are already
anodized, do take their toll on the saw blades.
That has been noted, I've nicely rounded the teeth of several Starret
hacksaw blades on the stuff myself, on one particular piece even breaking
the teeth completely off! So I tend to steer clear of colored alu as raw
material. :)
Post by Roland Jollivet
Regards
Roland
Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Flattery is like cologne -- to be smelled, but not swallowed.
-- Josh Billings
Roland Jollivet
2012-02-13 20:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by Roland Jollivet
..snip
I would imagine... that the oxide layer is way way thinner than a micron
in thickness, and while tough as you say, in climb milling the cutter
tip will hit the metal and with the eggshell effect, simply push past
the oxide layer.
In electronics, my specialty, we have a tendency to rate this oxide film by
its voltage withstand capability, which in the above mentioned .001 seconds
is about 40 volts. This insulation BTW is perfect, and is considered to be
degraded if a single electron succeeds in penetrating it. Leave it out in
the 19% oxygen air for a few weeks, or help it along with a hydroxide bath
and it can exceed 400 volts. That is quite a bit more than a micron
although I don't have a thickness/voltage conversion table handy ATM.
Post by Roland Jollivet
I think that if this was a general problem, it would receive more alerts
in industry, although some shopfitting sections which are already
anodized, do take their toll on the saw blades.
That has been noted, I've nicely rounded the teeth of several Starret
hacksaw blades on the stuff myself, on one particular piece even breaking
the teeth completely off! So I tend to steer clear of colored alu as raw
material. :)
Post by Roland Jollivet
Regards
Roland
But.. you can take almost any piece aluminium lying around (not anodised),
lightly touch it with the blunt rounded side of two crocodile clips, and
you'll measure a few milliohms. What happened to the oxide layer? It's so
thin that a few mN of pressure tore through it.

Regards
Roland
dave
2012-02-13 22:23:46 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:09:47 +0200
Post by Roland Jollivet
..snip
I would imagine... that the oxide layer is way way thinner than a
micron in thickness, and while tough as you say, in climb milling
the cutter tip will hit the metal and with the eggshell effect,
simply push past the oxide layer.
<snip>
Taken directly from the OSG 2-3 flute carbide end mill section.

dia rpm feed (ipm)
.015 100000 7.1
.020 62000 7.9
0.03 40000 7.9
0.0625 21200 7.9
5/64 16000 11.8

depth
< 1/32 .25D
1/32 -> 5/64 0.5D

scaling those spindle speeds gives more like .8 ipm and 0.03" depth/pass.

FWIW: Boeing uses copious amounts of emulsifiable oil in
cutting Al. Think fire hose type flows for a wing spar.

I did find a Russian video using alcohol for cooling. However,
if it flashes then you're toast. Alcohol also burns with a
almost colorless flame.

Looking at heat of vaporization:

material J/g

water 2257
methanol 1100
ethanol 846
propanol 779

Of course you have to boil it off to get that removal of heat.
Ventilation for the organics would be more than just advisable.

It looks much safer to stay with emulsifiable oil.

Keep kicking at it, you'll get there.

Dave
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gene heskett
2012-02-14 02:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by dave
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:09:47 +0200
Post by Roland Jollivet
..snip
I would imagine... that the oxide layer is way way thinner than a
micron in thickness, and while tough as you say, in climb milling
the cutter tip will hit the metal and with the eggshell effect,
simply push past the oxide layer.
<snip>
Taken directly from the OSG 2-3 flute carbide end mill section.
dia rpm feed (ipm)
.015 100000 7.1
.020 62000 7.9
0.03 40000 7.9
0.0625 21200 7.9
5/64 16000 11.8
depth
< 1/32 .25D
1/32 -> 5/64 0.5D
scaling those spindle speeds gives more like .8 ipm and 0.03" depth/pass.
So that is saying that my 1.5 ipm @ 2500 revs was still too fast by a
factor of 2?

Hummmmm. Next one will be brass, I got a small sheet at the hobby stop for
$8 today, then stopped at ACE to see if they had any more info on that
cutting oil they sell (no) and stumbled over a 8x34" sheet of solid brass
kick plate about .032 thick for a $30 bill, so both came home with me.
Post by dave
FWIW: Boeing uses copious amounts of emulsifiable oil in
cutting Al. Think fire hose type flows for a wing spar.
I've seen videos of such. Zero chance of a recut. :)
Post by dave
I did find a Russian video using alcohol for cooling. However,
if it flashes then you're toast. Alcohol also burns with a
almost colorless flame.
And even with CO2 extinguishers, damned hard to put out, we had to hit a
fuel burning dragster 3 times one afternoon in the pits at Cordova IL
during an ATAA nationals meet in the late '50's. In bright sunlight, your
only clue is a fuel line looking like a large diameter piece of dynamite
fuse, bubbling and boiling along without noticeable smoke. Spooky. We
used up 3 CO2 extinguishers in about half an hour before it was put out for
good. They had a 160mph machine but couldn't get it back to the tree in
time for the next heat, so Koch & Bedwell's machine got that heat by
default. Then Don Garlits took the next round by 2 or 3 feet at the traps.
Post by dave
material J/g
water 2257
methanol 1100
ethanol 846
propanol 779
Of course you have to boil it off to get that removal of heat.
Ventilation for the organics would be more than just advisable.
It looks much safer to stay with emulsifiable oil.
Keep kicking at it, you'll get there.
Dave
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Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
And if you wonder,
What I am doing,
As I am heading for the sink.
I am spitting out all the bitterness,
Along with half of my last drink.
Jon Elson
2012-02-14 05:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by dave
Taken directly from the OSG 2-3 flute carbide end mill section.
dia rpm feed (ipm)
.015 100000 7.1
.020 62000 7.9
0.03 40000 7.9
0.0625 21200 7.9
5/64 16000 11.8
depth
< 1/32 .25D
1/32 -> 5/64 0.5D
scaling those spindle speeds gives more like .8 ipm and 0.03" depth/pass.
factor of 2?
ONLY if you were using the .030" plunge per pass (half tool diameter), and a
2 or 3-flute cutter. But, you were using a 4-flute cutter at .005"
plunge, so
that would allow you to go much faster.

I really only know the numbers by gut feel with 1/8" end mills, but I
run 10 - 15
IPM on those with about .050" plunge. I do run a bit slower when "plowing"
full width, though.

Jon
Przemek Klosowski
2012-02-14 03:06:52 UTC
Permalink
       I did find a Russian video using alcohol for cooling.
I am not surprised---and I am sure that gherkins and bacon were involved too

(an old joke from where I grew up:
Medical team in an operating theater, lights, lots of surgical tools,
people quietly doing their work. The operating surgeon calls out to
the instrument nurse:

Large scalpel...

Small scalpel...

Alcohol...

Extractor...

Forceps...

Alcohol...

Sutures....

Alcohol...

Gherkin...
gene heskett
2012-02-14 01:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Jollivet
But.. you can take almost any piece aluminium lying around (not
anodised), lightly touch it with the blunt rounded side of two
crocodile clips, and you'll measure a few milliohms. What happened to
the oxide layer? It's so thin that a few mN of pressure tore through
it.
Regards
Roland
Chuckle. :) Now do this, Roland, clip two small clip leads to that piece of
alu sheet, and measure the ohms, likely very low, and write it on the alu
with the usual magic marker. Carefully set that sheet, clips and all, up
on a shelf for 6 months, then without disturbing those clips, measure from
the other ends of those clip leads 6 months later.

Those clips teeth do not have what it takes to make a "gas tight"
connection, and sitting there clipped without being disturbed will
demonstrate why I inspect the wiring in any building I contemplate sleeping
in for 3 nights in a row. If its a house I'm thinking about buying, and I
find alu wire anyplace in the service, no deal unless the seller wants to
replace it with copper, on his dime, before I sign on the dotted line. I
will not buy a time bomb. An alu related and caused fire occurred in the
service box, 8 feet from the bed I was sleeping in back in the '70's, but I
recognized the sound, and had what it took to go rip the meter out of its
socket and fix it temporarily, at 2am in a 20 below Nebraska night. The
next day I "borrowed" a foot of copper cable from the tv station I was in
charge of, and replaced that foot of alu range cable some idiot who
probably had an electricians card in his wallet put in when that old
farmhouse was wired 15 years back up the log.

That could, had I not awoke from the buzzing, have been a fatal fire for
the whole family of 11 that night, and its a lesson not easily forgotten.

11? Yeah, her 3, my 3, and our 3 plus the two of us.

Technically, ripping the seal off the meter is a felony in Nebraska, so
when I called Ron, the super at Wayne County Public Power & asked him to
come by and put a new seal on my homes meter after doing the fix the next
day, Ron was understandably curious as to the reason he had to record a new
seal number on my meter. But, since the tv station I was then in charge of
was his largest customer by a factor of 4 or 5 (30 kw UHF transmitters in
those days were klystrons and used around 225 kw/h during the broadcast
day), we were already good friends so nothing more was said.

Hey Ed, here's another "war story" for your "larval engineer". ;-)

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
I am the mother of all things, and all things should wear a sweater.
Jon Elson
2012-02-14 02:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Guy's, maybe I don't understand cutting alu as well as I thought.
All along, I have believed that it was more important to keep the oxygen in
the air away from the cutting surface in order to slow the formation of alu
oxide on the surface, which in normal air, not blown, can get a good start
in 0.001 seconds
I have some doubts about this. The oxide will form unless you run under
Argon shielding,
which may not be real practical.
Post by gene heskett
This oxide is also the 2nd
hardest substance known to man and can take the edge off a carbide tool
that has to cut thru it in seconds under the right set of wrong cutting
params, which my slow feed made worse.
Any slow cutting so that the tool is barely getting below the surface
increases wear.
Taking the biggest cuts the tool can survive reduces tool wear by
removing more
workpiece material with each cut.
Post by gene heskett
Sealing the cut surface against the air and its oxygen, blown or otherwise,
that causes this instant alu oxide film with its subsequent wear on the
cutting tool has always been the reason for my use of a cutting oil, deep
enough to flood and seal the surface, or misted, particularly when I don't
have the spindle rpms to throw it away from the cut.
Our shop at work does ALL aluminum dry, and usually use HSS cutters
(although possibly
they may be M42 or such cobalt cutters.) So, I think you are going WAY
overboard
with this oxide thing.
Post by gene heskett
The majority of the heat you are referring to is not the heat of the tools
cutting action, but is the result of the chemical reaction that forms this
alu oxide film so rapidly.
OH, COME ON! Where do you GET this stuff? Yes, oxidation is
exothermic, but really.
Shave some aluminum with an X-acto knife and see if you can detect this
heating!
I seriously doubt you can detect it. Rubbing of the tool when it is
having trouble
digging below the material is the largest source of heat, next is the
heating of the
chips as they are curled up. That heat should not get to the remaining
workpiece
material when things are done at the right speed, but we both have that
problem
of limited spindle RPM.
Post by gene heskett
That is my take on it. How right or wrong am I?
Sorry, I think your theory is full of holes. Many shops cut aluminum
dry, some at
insane rates. I read a book on high-speed machining, they were cutting
aluminum
at 640 cubic inches a minute removal rate, putting 80 HP into a 1/2"
end mill at 75,000 RPM. This was done dry, as no coolant could reach the
cutting are due to the bullet-like spray of chips coming out. Also, the
thermal
shock was harder on the carbide than running dry.

I cut a fair amount of it dry, and get excellent tool life either with
M42 Cobalt
cutters in the larger sizes, and solid carbide in the 1/8" size. I do
use water-based
coolant when I am doing a lot of cutting in a small area to prevent
heating of
the workpiece, or when there is a lot of material to remove. I can
often run
for days on one tool.

And, don't ignore climb milling, it makes a HUGE improvement in tool
life.

Jon
gene heskett
2012-02-14 04:03:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Elson
Post by gene heskett
Guy's, maybe I don't understand cutting alu as well as I thought.
All along, I have believed that it was more important to keep the
oxygen in the air away from the cutting surface in order to slow the
formation of alu oxide on the surface, which in normal air, not
blown, can get a good start in 0.001 seconds
I have some doubts about this. The oxide will form unless you run under
Argon shielding,
which may not be real practical.
Nitrogen should work equally well since the idea is to flood away the
oxygen. And its 99% cheaper.
Post by Jon Elson
Post by gene heskett
This oxide is also the 2nd
hardest substance known to man and can take the edge off a carbide
tool that has to cut thru it in seconds under the right set of wrong
cutting params, which my slow feed made worse.
Any slow cutting so that the tool is barely getting below the surface
increases wear.
Taking the biggest cuts the tool can survive reduces tool wear by
removing more
workpiece material with each cut.
Post by gene heskett
Sealing the cut surface against the air and its oxygen, blown or
otherwise, that causes this instant alu oxide film with its
subsequent wear on the cutting tool has always been the reason for my
use of a cutting oil, deep enough to flood and seal the surface, or
misted, particularly when I don't have the spindle rpms to throw it
away from the cut.
Our shop at work does ALL aluminum dry, and usually use HSS cutters
(although possibly
they may be M42 or such cobalt cutters.) So, I think you are going WAY
overboard
with this oxide thing.
Post by gene heskett
The majority of the heat you are referring to is not the heat of the
tools cutting action, but is the result of the chemical reaction that
forms this alu oxide film so rapidly.
OH, COME ON! Where do you GET this stuff? Yes, oxidation is
exothermic, but really.
This effect was discussed at length when we made the first 'test' cases for
our tv cameras out of alu we had cad plated back in 1960 and discovered
that no amount of cad plating could protect them from 8 hours over the side
of an LST 50 miles west of San Diego. 3/4" thick cases came back to shore
with 1/2" deep corrosion pits from the salt water exposure. In 8 hours.
None of those fancy, khaki colored Amphenol connectors survived either. So
we wound up buying a $25,000 (in 1959 dollars too!) Clausen lathe and
making all that stuff that was going on the Trieste for its dive into the
mohole in Feb '60, out of a bronze alloy the navy said would work. The
lathe wasn't straight, and it took Clausen techs about 3 weeks to get it to
both turn and bore that bronze, solid rod 8" in diameter to within a thou
of taper in the 20" we needed to contain the camera, which was itself only
2.5" in diameter. I think in the end they were even holding seances over
it.

All that leads up to the machinist, trying to get that last half a thou to
a perfect fit, had the alu marching right along in the smaller 10 foot
lathe, and had to stop suddenly as the chip string coming off his tool was
actually burning about 4 to 6" away from the tool. All this took place
about 20 feet from the bench where I was busy assembling serial number 3.
Something about the smoke made us open the windows and clear the building
for a smoke of our own for about 10 minutes.
Post by Jon Elson
Shave some aluminum with an X-acto knife and see if you can detect this
heating!
I seriously doubt you can detect it.
Nope, not near enough mass to measure.
Post by Jon Elson
Rubbing of the tool when it is
having trouble
digging below the material is the largest source of heat, next is the
heating of the
chips as they are curled up. That heat should not get to the remaining
workpiece
material when things are done at the right speed, but we both have that
problem
of limited spindle RPM.
Post by gene heskett
That is my take on it. How right or wrong am I?
Sorry, I think your theory is full of holes. Many shops cut aluminum
dry, some at
insane rates. I read a book on high-speed machining, they were cutting
aluminum
at 640 cubic inches a minute removal rate, putting 80 HP into a 1/2"
end mill at 75,000 RPM.
That is 0.37037037037 cubic feet of material removed in a minute? I can
see why it took an 80HP spindle.
Post by Jon Elson
This was done dry, as no coolant could reach
the cutting are due to the bullet-like spray of chips coming out.
Also, the thermal
shock was harder on the carbide than running dry.
I have seen discussions of that source of edge cracking in carbide. If its
allowed to run hot, that helps its life.
Post by Jon Elson
I cut a fair amount of it dry, and get excellent tool life either with
M42 Cobalt
cutters in the larger sizes, and solid carbide in the 1/8" size. I do
use water-based
coolant when I am doing a lot of cutting in a small area to prevent
heating of
the workpiece, or when there is a lot of material to remove. I can
often run
for days on one tool.
So can I, if the mister is on & the work is kept swept clean by it.
Post by Jon Elson
And, don't ignore climb milling, it makes a HUGE improvement in tool
life.
No doubt about that at all.
Post by Jon Elson
Jon
Its a bit hard to climb when you are going in a circle which will
eventually become where the part is 'parted off' :)

However, this does lead to the question:

Is there a calculator, online or downloadable that will tell one the ball
park correct feedrate for a given bit and depth of cut at x rpms? I would
have far less problems with my un-SWAG methods of doing this if I had a
good, known to be safe, starting point.

And, needing an air sweep or mister supply, I might be able to justify one
of those little pancake air compressors that I could actually run inside my
12x16 building.

Thanks Jon.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
I am a traffic light, and Alan Ginzberg kidnapped my laundry in 1927!
Mark Cason
2012-02-14 05:09:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by Jon Elson
Post by gene heskett
Guy's, maybe I don't understand cutting alu as well as I thought.
All along, I have believed that it was more important to keep the
oxygen in the air away from the cutting surface in order to slow the
formation of alu oxide on the surface, which in normal air, not
blown, can get a good start in 0.001 seconds
I have some doubts about this. The oxide will form unless you run under
Argon shielding,
which may not be real practical.
Nitrogen should work equally well since the idea is to flood away the
oxygen. And its 99% cheaper.
Not exactly, Nitrogen can react with the magnesium in various
alloys, There's a reason why noble gases, specifically Argon, and
Helium are used as shielding gases. The only exception is CO2, where
it's used in welding.
--
-Mark

Ne M'oubliez ---Family Motto
Hope for the best, plan for the worst ---Personal Motto
gene heskett
2012-02-14 06:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Cason
Post by gene heskett
Post by Jon Elson
Post by gene heskett
Guy's, maybe I don't understand cutting alu as well as I thought.
All along, I have believed that it was more important to keep the
oxygen in the air away from the cutting surface in order to slow the
formation of alu oxide on the surface, which in normal air, not
blown, can get a good start in 0.001 seconds
I have some doubts about this. The oxide will form unless you run
under Argon shielding,
which may not be real practical.
Nitrogen should work equally well since the idea is to flood away the
oxygen. And its 99% cheaper.
Not exactly, Nitrogen can react with the magnesium in various
alloys, There's a reason why noble gases, specifically Argon, and
Helium are used as shielding gases. The only exception is CO2, where
it's used in welding.
There, particularly in a mig setup, its main reason is to add its carbon to
the puddle, hardening the weld. Same effect as firing up your Smith Wrench
and running a long central feather in the flame by reducing the oxygen flow
a wee bit. You can make very very good welding rod out of a pile of coat
hangers that way. ;-) But you don't have the control over the carbon
added that way in comparison to the Smith Wrench, that is almost unlimited.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Support your right to bare arms!
-- A message from the National Short-Sleeved Shirt
Association
Mark Cason
2012-02-14 09:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by Mark Cason
Post by gene heskett
Post by Jon Elson
Post by gene heskett
Guy's, maybe I don't understand cutting alu as well as I thought.
All along, I have believed that it was more important to keep the
oxygen in the air away from the cutting surface in order to slow the
formation of alu oxide on the surface, which in normal air, not
blown, can get a good start in 0.001 seconds
I have some doubts about this. The oxide will form unless you run
under Argon shielding,
which may not be real practical.
Nitrogen should work equally well since the idea is to flood away the
oxygen. And its 99% cheaper.
Not exactly, Nitrogen can react with the magnesium in various
alloys, There's a reason why noble gases, specifically Argon, and
Helium are used as shielding gases. The only exception is CO2, where
it's used in welding.
There, particularly in a mig setup, its main reason is to add its carbon to
the puddle, hardening the weld. Same effect as firing up your Smith Wrench
and running a long central feather in the flame by reducing the oxygen flow
a wee bit. You can make very very good welding rod out of a pile of coat
hangers that way. ;-) But you don't have the control over the carbon
added that way in comparison to the Smith Wrench, that is almost unlimited.
Cheers, Gene
Off topic, butCO2 isn't technically a shielding gas, it is a reactive
gas. Along with increasing carbon content in a weld, CO2 also adds heat
to a weld, resulting in deeper penetration, at the expense of a bit more
slag, and lots of spatter. Using pure CO2 is an old trick to make a
small welder weld like a bigger one. Very thin sheet metal can use pure
Argon, up to 95/5 AR/CO2 mix, but basically, the thicker the metal, the
more CO2 you want. I use pure C02 from 1/4" on up. I have both CO2,
and Argon tanks, with their own flowmeters, and a custom made mixer, so
I can dial in the exact mixture, from pure argon, to pure C02. Getting
the percentages set right is a bit touchy, but it works, and it's a lot
cheaper than proportional gas mixer.

Sorry, I can go on for hours on the various methods of welding. It's
one of the first things I learned when I was very young, and I'm quite
good at it. I have 5 different welding machines, and my favorite is my
220v Millermatic, but right now, my most used machine is my little
Lincoln 140, running FCAW, because I can take it pretty much anywhere
there's a 120v plug.

I have a nice Lincoln Precision TIG, but I don't use it enough to
keep my skill level up. However, welding up Dad's transfer case a
couple weeks ago, really tested the machines ability, as well as my
skill. It hasn't self destructed yet, so I think I did ok.

As for the coat hangars, I haven't used any since I was a kid,
"borrowing" Dad's torch to fix my bike. Dad would notice when a filler
rods came up missing, but Mom never really noticed a coat hanger
missing. Smith Wrench, never heard that one before. I'll have to
remember that :)
--
-Mark

Ne M'oubliez ---Family Motto
Hope for the best, plan for the worst ---Personal Motto
gene heskett
2012-02-14 12:12:27 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, February 14, 2012 06:49:06 AM Mark Cason did opine:

[...]
Post by Mark Cason
Post by gene heskett
Post by Mark Cason
alloys, There's a reason why noble gases, specifically Argon, and
Helium are used as shielding gases. The only exception is CO2, where
it's used in welding.
There, particularly in a mig setup, its main reason is to add its
carbon to the puddle, hardening the weld. Same effect as firing up
your Smith Wrench and running a long central feather in the flame by
reducing the oxygen flow a wee bit. You can make very very good
welding rod out of a pile of coat hangers that way. ;-) But you
don't have the control over the carbon added that way in comparison
to the Smith Wrench, that is almost unlimited.
Cheers, Gene
Off topic, butCO2 isn't technically a shielding gas, it is a reactive
gas. Along with increasing carbon content in a weld, CO2 also adds heat
to a weld, resulting in deeper penetration, at the expense of a bit more
slag, and lots of spatter. Using pure CO2 is an old trick to make a
small welder weld like a bigger one. Very thin sheet metal can use pure
Argon, up to 95/5 AR/CO2 mix, but basically, the thicker the metal, the
more CO2 you want. I use pure C02 from 1/4" on up. I have both CO2,
and Argon tanks, with their own flowmeters, and a custom made mixer, so
I can dial in the exact mixture, from pure argon, to pure C02. Getting
the percentages set right is a bit touchy, but it works, and it's a lot
cheaper than proportional gas mixer.
:)
Post by Mark Cason
Sorry, I can go on for hours on the various methods of welding. It's
one of the first things I learned when I was very young, and I'm quite
good at it.
I took classes from a guy with a 3 foot string of Army/Navy Cert cards in
his wallet, back in the middle 1950's. He was good, I saw him use a gas
torch to put the pieces of mag back in the side of an early 6 cyl
mercruiser block that a wandering con rod had knocked out. Very nice
puddles when he was done. Then he showed us, since the block was also
warped from a lack of coolant and not rebuildable, what would happen if you
got it too hot. Since we were on the sidewalk in front of the building, we
had to pour a couple sections of new walk the next day after things had
cooled, and had to convince the fire dept, who had never seen a magnesium
fueled fire before, not to hit it with any water which would have made it
real interesting, real fast. The sidewalk needed replacing anyway, so no
big deal. Today, the environmental folks would have arrived the next day
with whole stacks of fines for env damages. :)

Yes, its a science all by itself.
Post by Mark Cason
I have 5 different welding machines, and my favorite is my
220v Millermatic, but right now, my most used machine is my little
Lincoln 140, running FCAW, because I can take it pretty much anywhere
there's a 120v plug.
I have a 135, with the usual argon +25% CO2 mixed bottle for shielding. It
works well if I can keep the auto shield from fogging up as I have to pull
it down a long way to see through the trifocals.
Post by Mark Cason
I have a nice Lincoln Precision TIG, but I don't use it enough to
keep my skill level up. However, welding up Dad's transfer case a
couple weeks ago, really tested the machines ability, as well as my
skill. It hasn't self destructed yet, so I think I did ok.
As for the coat hangars, I haven't used any since I was a kid,
"borrowing" Dad's torch to fix my bike. Dad would notice when a filler
rods came up missing, but Mom never really noticed a coat hanger
missing. Smith Wrench, never heard that one before. I'll have to
remember that :)
Slang I guess since Smith makes the best ones. The electric stick box was
a Miller Wrench by the same logic.

OT? I'd say...

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Jon Elson
2012-02-14 06:13:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
This effect was discussed at length when we made the first 'test' cases for
our tv cameras out of alu we had cad plated back in 1960 and discovered
that no amount of cad plating could protect them from 8 hours over the side
of an LST 50 miles west of San Diego.
I am NOT disputing that aluminum oxidizes and corrodes, only that the
thin film of oxide
is NOT a huge impediment to milling, and that you need to do all
aluminum milling
submerged in an oxygen barrier.
Post by gene heskett
Is there a calculator, online or downloadable that will tell one the ball
park correct feedrate for a given bit and depth of cut at x rpms? I would
have far less problems with my un-SWAG methods of doing this if I had a
good, known to be safe, starting point.
I have these slide-rule type gadgets from McDonnell-Douglas that I got
at a local
scrap yard. But, there are some calculators. I have used Mr. Machinst,
but I think
my trial copy timed out. http://www.mrmachinist.net/
I just checked, it seems to still have the feed rate, etc. calculator.

The basics I use, even without the slide rule, is that plunge should
never exceed 1/2
the end mill diameter, and then in softer stuff the feed per tooth should be
around .010" per inch of tool diameter. So, for a 1/8" end mill, it should
be .00125" per tooth. At 2500 RPM with a 4-flute cutter, then you get
12.5 IPM. For your 1/16" cutter, you should be around 6 IPM for
the .030" plunge, but I'm conservative, so I'd keep the plunge to
.020" and maybe feed around 5 IPM. Keep the slot clear of chips,
so use the minimum of cutting oil if you are not flooding it, and
either keep brushing the chips away or blast it with air. The above
may sound confusing. What you want to do is keep the chips from
recutting. So, either use minimum oil and brushing or air, or a FLOW
of some coolant that carries the chips away.

Jon
gene heskett
2012-02-14 11:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Elson
Post by gene heskett
This effect was discussed at length when we made the first 'test'
cases for our tv cameras out of alu we had cad plated back in 1960
and discovered that no amount of cad plating could protect them from
8 hours over the side of an LST 50 miles west of San Diego.
I am NOT disputing that aluminum oxidizes and corrodes, only that the
thin film of oxide
is NOT a huge impediment to milling, and that you need to do all
aluminum milling
submerged in an oxygen barrier.
Post by gene heskett
Is there a calculator, online or downloadable that will tell one the
ball park correct feedrate for a given bit and depth of cut at x
rpms? I would have far less problems with my un-SWAG methods of
doing this if I had a good, known to be safe, starting point.
I have these slide-rule type gadgets from McDonnell-Douglas that I got
at a local
scrap yard. But, there are some calculators. I have used Mr. Machinst,
but I think
my trial copy timed out. http://www.mrmachinist.net/
I just checked, it seems to still have the feed rate, etc. calculator.
Needs wine & $70.
Post by Jon Elson
The basics I use, even without the slide rule, is that plunge should
never exceed 1/2
the end mill diameter, and then in softer stuff the feed per tooth
should be around .010" per inch of tool diameter. So, for a 1/8" end
mill, it should be .00125" per tooth. At 2500 RPM with a 4-flute
cutter, then you get 12.5 IPM. For your 1/16" cutter, you should be
around 6 IPM for the .030" plunge, but I'm conservative, so I'd keep
the plunge to .020" and maybe feed around 5 IPM. Keep the slot clear
of chips, so use the minimum of cutting oil if you are not flooding it,
and either keep brushing the chips away or blast it with air. The
above may sound confusing. What you want to do is keep the chips from
recutting. So, either use minimum oil and brushing or air, or a FLOW
of some coolant that carries the chips away.
Since I have yet to stumble over a suitable pan to catch & recycle the
coolant, air seems like the best bet then, delivered via the mister I
built, and which I can position about an inch from the tool, following the
tool. My run times for that are relatively short as the reservoir only
holds about 2 ci. It also fogs up my glasses as the safflower oil just
seems to hang in the air for hours. It does work well, giving me the best
finish ever. If I open the door & stick a box fan blowing out, the air is
tolerable. 40 years ago you could buy a needle valve to regulate the oil
flow, but no one makes such a beast today. What you can get is one that
when stopped down as tight as you can turn it, still leaks about 10x what
you need. :( Something else I'll have to make I guess.

Thanks Jon.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
<Mercury> You don't have to be crazy to be a member of the project, but
you will be.. <=:]
Steve Stallings
2012-02-14 14:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Elson
Post by Jon Elson
But, there are some calculators. I have used
Mr. Machinst, but I think
my trial copy timed out. http://www.mrmachinist.net/
I just checked, it seems to still have the feed rate, etc.
calculator.
Needs wine & $70.
There was a shareware version of Mr. Machinist
back in the days when it ran on DOS.

See mrm110.zip located here:

http://www.metalworking.com/shareware.html

Cheers,
Steve Stallings
gene heskett
2012-02-14 19:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Stallings
Post by Jon Elson
Post by Jon Elson
But, there are some calculators. I have used
Mr. Machinst, but I think
my trial copy timed out. http://www.mrmachinist.net/
I just checked, it seems to still have the feed rate, etc.
calculator.
Needs wine & $70.
There was a shareware version of Mr. Machinist
back in the days when it ran on DOS.
http://www.metalworking.com/shareware.html
Got it, but haven't run it yet, thanks Steve.
Post by Steve Stallings
Cheers,
Steve Stallings
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Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Karl's version of Parkinson's Law: Work expands to exceed the time alloted
it.
Jon Elson
2012-02-14 18:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by Jon Elson
my trial copy timed out. http://www.mrmachinist.net/
I just checked, it seems to still have the feed rate, etc. calculator.
Needs wine & $70.
Do they have a trial version?
Post by gene heskett
Since I have yet to stumble over a suitable pan to catch & recycle the
coolant, air seems like the best bet then, delivered via the mister I
built, and which I can position about an inch from the tool, following the
tool. My run times for that are relatively short as the reservoir only
holds about 2 ci. It also fogs up my glasses as the safflower oil just
seems to hang in the air for hours. It does work well, giving me the best
finish ever. If I open the door & stick a box fan blowing out, the air is
tolerable. 40 years ago you could buy a needle valve to regulate the oil
flow, but no one makes such a beast today. What you can get is one that
when stopped down as tight as you can turn it, still leaks about 10x what
you need. :( Something else I'll have to make I guess.
While I don't use mist coolant, I think it should be excellent in this
situation. I did a similar
wheel once in some kind of plated steel, and it was chewing up my
carbide end mill.
So, I did it with an air blast and brushed-on cutting oil and it worked.

Have you tried aquarium air valves? Hoke and Swagelock make valves that
will close
down to helium leak checker leak rates, but they may be expensive.


Jon
gene heskett
2012-02-14 20:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Elson
Post by gene heskett
Post by Jon Elson
my trial copy timed out. http://www.mrmachinist.net/
I just checked, it seems to still have the feed rate, etc.
calculator.
Needs wine & $70.
Do they have a trial version?
Post by gene heskett
Since I have yet to stumble over a suitable pan to catch & recycle the
coolant, air seems like the best bet then, delivered via the mister I
built, and which I can position about an inch from the tool, following
the tool. My run times for that are relatively short as the reservoir
only holds about 2 ci. It also fogs up my glasses as the safflower
oil just seems to hang in the air for hours. It does work well,
giving me the best finish ever. If I open the door & stick a box fan
blowing out, the air is tolerable. 40 years ago you could buy a
needle valve to regulate the oil flow, but no one makes such a beast
today. What you can get is one that when stopped down as tight as you
can turn it, still leaks about 10x what you need. :( Something else
I'll have to make I guess.
While I don't use mist coolant, I think it should be excellent in this
situation. I did a similar
wheel once in some kind of plated steel, and it was chewing up my
carbide end mill.
So, I did it with an air blast and brushed-on cutting oil and it worked.
Have you tried aquarium air valves?
Now there is a source I hadn't thought of, thanks Jon!
Post by Jon Elson
Hoke and Swagelock make valves that
will close
down to helium leak checker leak rates, but they may be expensive.
May be? Shirley you jest. :)
Post by Jon Elson
Jon
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Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
"With molasses you catch flies, with vinegar you catch nobody."
-- Baltimore City Councilman Dominic DiPietro
dave
2012-02-14 17:23:55 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:41:18 -0600
Post by Jon Elson
Post by gene heskett
Guy's, maybe I don't understand cutting alu as well as I thought.
All along, I have believed that it was more important to keep the
oxygen in the air away from the cutting surface in order to slow
the formation of alu oxide on the surface, which in normal air, not
blown, can get a good start in 0.001 seconds
I have some doubts about this. The oxide will form unless you run
under Argon shielding,
which may not be real practical.
Post by gene heskett
This oxide is also the 2nd
hardest substance known to man and can take the edge off a carbide
tool that has to cut thru it in seconds under the right set of
wrong cutting params, which my slow feed made worse.
Any slow cutting so that the tool is barely getting below the surface
increases wear.
Taking the biggest cuts the tool can survive reduces tool wear by
removing more
workpiece material with each cut.
Post by gene heskett
Sealing the cut surface against the air and its oxygen, blown or
otherwise, that causes this instant alu oxide film with its
subsequent wear on the cutting tool has always been the reason for
my use of a cutting oil, deep enough to flood and seal the surface,
or misted, particularly when I don't have the spindle rpms to throw
it away from the cut.
Our shop at work does ALL aluminum dry, and usually use HSS cutters
(although possibly
they may be M42 or such cobalt cutters.) So, I think you are going
WAY overboard
with this oxide thing.
Post by gene heskett
The majority of the heat you are referring to is not the heat of
the tools cutting action, but is the result of the chemical
reaction that forms this alu oxide film so rapidly.
OH, COME ON! Where do you GET this stuff? Yes, oxidation is
exothermic, but really.
Shave some aluminum with an X-acto knife and see if you can detect
this heating!
I seriously doubt you can detect it. Rubbing of the tool when it is
having trouble
digging below the material is the largest source of heat, next is the
heating of the
chips as they are curled up. That heat should not get to the
remaining workpiece
material when things are done at the right speed, but we both have
that problem
of limited spindle RPM.
Post by gene heskett
That is my take on it. How right or wrong am I?
Sorry, I think your theory is full of holes. Many shops cut aluminum
dry, some at
insane rates. I read a book on high-speed machining, they were
cutting aluminum
at 640 cubic inches a minute removal rate, putting 80 HP into a 1/2"
end mill at 75,000 RPM. This was done dry, as no coolant could reach
the cutting are due to the bullet-like spray of chips coming out.
Also, the thermal
shock was harder on the carbide than running dry.
I cut a fair amount of it dry, and get excellent tool life either
with M42 Cobalt
cutters in the larger sizes, and solid carbide in the 1/8" size. I
do use water-based
coolant when I am doing a lot of cutting in a small area to prevent
heating of
the workpiece, or when there is a lot of material to remove. I can
often run
for days on one tool.
And, don't ignore climb milling, it makes a HUGE improvement in tool
life.
Jon
Aluminum to the oxide yields about 60 Kcal/g but calculate the weight of
a small area of Al 0.001 thick and I don't think you are going to see
the heat.
I suspect the only reason to use carbide is that small HSS mills are
really flexible.

Even though my mill has serious backlash I can climb mill with small
mills, eg. <= .25". I have had occasional trouble with a .5 rougher but
I had really buried it. I can climb mill with .5 carbide roughers on
steel if I take a light cuts like 50 to 100 thou.

Dave
Post by Jon Elson
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Jon Elson
2012-02-14 18:25:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by dave
I suspect the only reason to use carbide is that small HSS mills are
really flexible.
Well, it is both a hardness/wear resistance issue and a stiffness
issue. I VERY rarely
use small HSS tooling for this reason. Our shop at work is guys from
the "old school"
and almost never use carbide on the mill (use lots of indexable carbide
on the lathe).
I remember watching them make something for me a while ago with a 1/16"
HSS end mill, and I swear the tip of the end mill was tilted 30 degrees
from straight.
I suggested carbide but they didn't have any, so they had FITS getting
that slot to
the right dimension.
Post by dave
Even though my mill has serious backlash I can climb mill with small
mills, eg. <= .25". I have had occasional trouble with a .5 rougher but
I had really buried it. I can climb mill with .5 carbide roughers on
steel if I take a light cuts like 50 to 100 thou.
I used to make climb cuts with great trepidation on my manual
Bridgeport, as it
has .030" blacklash on X and .050"+ on Y. Now, I make practically all cuts
in the climb direction except when going back and forth cleaning up the
side of some piece.

Jon
dave
2012-02-14 19:32:14 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 12:25:31 -0600
Post by Jon Elson
Post by dave
I suspect the only reason to use carbide is that small HSS mills are
really flexible.
Well, it is both a hardness/wear resistance issue and a stiffness
issue. I VERY rarely
use small HSS tooling for this reason. Our shop at work is guys from
the "old school"
and almost never use carbide on the mill (use lots of indexable
carbide on the lathe).
I remember watching them make something for me a while ago with a
1/16" HSS end mill, and I swear the tip of the end mill was tilted 30
degrees from straight.
I suggested carbide but they didn't have any, so they had FITS
getting that slot to
the right dimension.
Post by dave
Even though my mill has serious backlash I can climb mill with
small mills, eg. <= .25". I have had occasional trouble with a .5
rougher but I had really buried it. I can climb mill with .5
carbide roughers on steel if I take a light cuts like 50 to 100
thou.
I used to make climb cuts with great trepidation on my manual
Bridgeport, as it
has .030" blacklash on X and .050"+ on Y. Now, I make practically
all cuts in the climb direction except when going back and forth
cleaning up the side of some piece.
Jon
GOOD GRIEF!! and I thought 0.003 on X and Y was bad.

If I'm lucky I can go hold the piece so I can go all the way around
climb-cutting. I seem to be doing more where I rough with a .500 and
clean up with 0.25" carbide. Of course the doc is limited.

Dave
Post by Jon Elson
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gene heskett
2012-02-14 20:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by dave
On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 12:25:31 -0600
Post by Jon Elson
Post by dave
I suspect the only reason to use carbide is that small HSS mills are
really flexible.
Well, it is both a hardness/wear resistance issue and a stiffness
issue. I VERY rarely
use small HSS tooling for this reason. Our shop at work is guys from
the "old school"
and almost never use carbide on the mill (use lots of indexable
carbide on the lathe).
I remember watching them make something for me a while ago with a
1/16" HSS end mill, and I swear the tip of the end mill was tilted 30
degrees from straight.
I suggested carbide but they didn't have any, so they had FITS
getting that slot to
the right dimension.
Post by dave
Even though my mill has serious backlash I can climb mill with
small mills, eg. <= .25". I have had occasional trouble with a .5
rougher but I had really buried it. I can climb mill with .5
carbide roughers on steel if I take a light cuts like 50 to 100
thou.
I used to make climb cuts with great trepidation on my manual
Bridgeport, as it
has .030" blacklash on X and .050"+ on Y. Now, I make practically
all cuts in the climb direction except when going back and forth
cleaning up the side of some piece.
Jon
GOOD GRIEF!! and I thought 0.003 on X and Y was bad.
You stole my line, Dave. :) When I get above 4 thou, its adjust things time
again.
Post by dave
If I'm lucky I can go hold the piece so I can go all the way around
climb-cutting. I seem to be doing more where I rough with a .500 and
clean up with 0.25" carbide. Of course the doc is limited.
Dave
Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Turnaucka's Law:
The attention span of a computer is only as long as its
electrical cord.
Jon Elson
2012-02-15 03:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by dave
GOOD GRIEF!! and I thought 0.003 on X and Y was bad.
Well, that was the original 1938 Acme screw and bronze nuts. The threads in
the center of the X screw are thinner to the extent you can see it from
ten feet
away! Now, I have a "backlash" of about .001 - .0015 on all the axes of
my mill. It is not true backlash but spring in the various mountings of the
ballscrews and nuts.

Jon
gene heskett
2012-02-15 04:16:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Elson
Post by dave
GOOD GRIEF!! and I thought 0.003 on X and Y was bad.
Well, that was the original 1938 Acme screw and bronze nuts. The
threads in the center of the X screw are thinner to the extent you can
see it from ten feet
away!
And the guy you bought it from claimed very little wear I'll bet...
Post by Jon Elson
Now, I have a "backlash" of about .001 - .0015 on all the axes of
my mill. It is not true backlash but spring in the various mountings of
the ballscrews and nuts.
Jon
That sounds more like it.

Thanks Jon.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Biology grows on you.
Jon Elson
2012-02-15 19:00:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
And the guy you bought it from claimed very little wear I'll bet...
No, no, they were honest that it was beat, it was the last one at a HUGE
auction after
everybody had taken the good stuff. But, it was a SMALL machine,
significantly
smaller than J-head Bridgeports, and a lot easier to get into my
basement at the
time. we DID pay too much for it!

Jon
gene heskett
2012-02-15 19:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Elson
Post by gene heskett
And the guy you bought it from claimed very little wear I'll bet...
No, no, they were honest that it was beat, it was the last one at a HUGE
auction after
everybody had taken the good stuff. But, it was a SMALL machine,
significantly
smaller than J-head Bridgeports, and a lot easier to get into my
basement at the
time. we DID pay too much for it!
Jon
Chuckle, in our own minds we always pay too much, Jon. I am just as guilty
of that as any of the rest of this list, if not moreso. ;-)

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Prepare for tomorrow -- get ready.
-- Edith Keeler, "The City On the Edge of Forever",
stardate unknown
dave
2012-02-15 06:09:09 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 21:00:16 -0600
Post by Jon Elson
Post by dave
GOOD GRIEF!! and I thought 0.003 on X and Y was bad.
Well, that was the original 1938 Acme screw and bronze nuts. The
threads in the center of the X screw are thinner to the extent you
can see it from ten feet
away! Now, I have a "backlash" of about .001 - .0015 on all the axes
of my mill. It is not true backlash but spring in the various
mountings of the ballscrews and nuts.
Jon
Ah! That is pretty livable. I'm at something like 2.5 thou on both the
Mazak and Cinci. I don't like it but can live with it.

Dave
Post by Jon Elson
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Peter Blodow
2012-02-14 11:11:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Guy's, maybe I don't understand cutting alu as well as I thought.
Cheers, Gene
Gene, just don't make so much fuss of the oxidizing bit. Run the machine
at its highest revs (al least with these small cutters), don't think
about it, take as big a chip as the machine and workpiece suspension
will take, and happily mill away! There are zillions of mills and lathes
out there where nobody thinks about oxidation. I used to have (retired
now) a medium size Deckel-Gildemeister milling center in my company's
work shop which produced a lot of alu workpieces, adjusting its speed of
rotation automatically to the bit size. Small cutters like yours usually
run at 16000 to 25000 rpm there.

Climb milling is preferable if the backlash of your screw will permit
it. Blades will always cut into fresh material, less friction, less
heat. With small cutters, you may compensate for backlash with a fairly
large retaining spring.

Making tiny chips enlarges the alu surface and promotes oxidation, if
that is your fear. So, make large chips instead.

If I were you (it's about as cold in mine as in your shop) I would make
myself a nice encoder pattern on foil with my laser printer and etch the
thing out of thin copper or hard brass sheet in my warm kitchen. By the
way, I bought three encoders, 512 lines, for 10 Euros at ebay last year,
marked as defective. Two were ok, the third needs some attention.

Best regards

Peter Blodow
gene heskett
2012-02-14 12:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Blodow
Post by gene heskett
Guy's, maybe I don't understand cutting alu as well as I thought.
Cheers, Gene
Gene, just don't make so much fuss of the oxidizing bit. Run the machine
at its highest revs (al least with these small cutters), don't think
about it, take as big a chip as the machine and workpiece suspension
will take, and happily mill away! There are zillions of mills and lathes
out there where nobody thinks about oxidation. I used to have (retired
now) a medium size Deckel-Gildemeister milling center in my company's
work shop which produced a lot of alu workpieces, adjusting its speed of
rotation automatically to the bit size. Small cutters like yours usually
run at 16000 to 25000 rpm there.
Climb milling is preferable if the backlash of your screw will permit
it. Blades will always cut into fresh material, less friction, less
heat. With small cutters, you may compensate for backlash with a fairly
large retaining spring.
Making tiny chips enlarges the alu surface and promotes oxidation, if
that is your fear. So, make large chips instead.
That seems to be the consensus.
Post by Peter Blodow
If I were you (it's about as cold in mine as in your shop) I would make
myself a nice encoder pattern on foil with my laser printer and etch the
thing out of thin copper or hard brass sheet in my warm kitchen. By the
way, I bought three encoders, 512 lines, for 10 Euros at ebay last year,
marked as defective. Two were ok, the third needs some attention.
Those would need more cpu power I think. This one has 45 holes, giving 2
degree resolution which should be more than 'good enough' for a 1st pass at
a 7x12 lathe, which can turn 2500 revs, but never has when the tool was
cutting. Lack of ponies is a very real problem with those.
Post by Peter Blodow
Best regards
Peter Blodow
Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Once it hits the fan, the only rational choice is to sweep it up, package
it,
and sell it as fertilizer.
Peter Blodow
2012-02-14 15:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Gene, how about drilling those holes, if you don't need more resolution
than that. Even simpler: punch them with a paper (document) punch (don't
know what the term in english is) in a straight piece of sheet metal.

Peter
Post by gene heskett
Post by Peter Blodow
Post by gene heskett
Guy's, maybe I don't understand cutting alu as well as I thought.
Cheers, Gene
Gene, just don't make so much fuss of the oxidizing bit. Run the machine
at its highest revs (al least with these small cutters), don't think
about it, take as big a chip as the machine and workpiece suspension
will take, and happily mill away! There are zillions of mills and lathes
out there where nobody thinks about oxidation. I used to have (retired
now) a medium size Deckel-Gildemeister milling center in my company's
work shop which produced a lot of alu workpieces, adjusting its speed of
rotation automatically to the bit size. Small cutters like yours usually
run at 16000 to 25000 rpm there.
Climb milling is preferable if the backlash of your screw will permit
it. Blades will always cut into fresh material, less friction, less
heat. With small cutters, you may compensate for backlash with a fairly
large retaining spring.
Making tiny chips enlarges the alu surface and promotes oxidation, if
that is your fear. So, make large chips instead.
That seems to be the consensus.
Post by Peter Blodow
If I were you (it's about as cold in mine as in your shop) I would make
myself a nice encoder pattern on foil with my laser printer and etch the
thing out of thin copper or hard brass sheet in my warm kitchen. By the
way, I bought three encoders, 512 lines, for 10 Euros at ebay last year,
marked as defective. Two were ok, the third needs some attention.
Those would need more cpu power I think. This one has 45 holes, giving 2
degree resolution which should be more than 'good enough' for a 1st pass at
a 7x12 lathe, which can turn 2500 revs, but never has when the tool was
cutting. Lack of ponies is a very real problem with those.
Post by Peter Blodow
Best regards
Peter Blodow
Cheers, Gene
gene heskett
2012-02-14 20:20:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Blodow
Gene, how about drilling those holes, if you don't need more resolution
than that. Even simpler: punch them with a paper (document) punch (don't
know what the term in english is) in a straight piece of sheet metal.
Peter
I thought of that Peter, but round holes would require more precision in
mounting each of the slot detectors. So a hole turned into a slot, if I
get it all corralled, will allow the interrupters to be mounted on a pcb
which can be mounted fairly rigidly, in essentially a straight line, with
A/B hitting two slots (actually about every 3rd slot since they are closer
than the opto stuff can be) and the Z interrupter, sitting the same spacing
away so its effective radii is larger and catches the outer index slot
only, about .1" outboard of the main slot circle, should give something
that is workable, and a whole lot more rigidly mounted than making 3 teeny
little pcb holders that can get knocked out of whack screwing the timing so
much easier.

The idea is to set them perhaps 50 thou proud of the pcb, get the whole
thing mounted, and with my dual trace scope, bend them a few thou sideways
to arrive at a near perfect quadrature output signals giving 2 degree
accuracy for the A/B signals. When that is done, then the bolts thru the
opto's ears can be snugged up to firm up the position. The mounting holes
in the board are oversize to allow this few thou of fudging.

Then the Z signal logic s/b set to detect only an edge detected for a given
A/B logic condition, and it will then be adjusted a few thou to put that
edge dead in the center of the A/B condition defined. I haven't asked how
to do that yet in the hal file, but I figure its likely only a line or 3 of
hal code.

Baby steps. :)

The document punches here would make holes about 5x the size needed, so
that would not be a workable solution given that I only have a small
section of a circle whose radii is 2.3" at best to contain this. Perhaps
2.3" of pcb length, height determined by the bearing retainer nuts to face
of spindle housing, approximately 1.1" in this case. The encoder wheel
itself will be trapped between the spindle bearing lock buts.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Karl's version of Parkinson's Law: Work expands to exceed the time alloted
it.
Erik Christiansen
2012-02-15 01:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
The encoder wheel
itself will be trapped between the spindle bearing lock buts.
Gene, have you considered using a piece of thin PCB material for the
encoder wheel, since all your sheet Al is toffee? A piece of the brown
phenolic stuff would be easier on the tool. Copper is needed on at
least one side, if the green fibreglass board is used, because it lets
too much light through. (About 34 years ago I was cautious enough to
check a piece before making a wheel, and switched to PVC sheet. But
I had more room, for a thicker wheel, than you do.)

Erik
--
A man with one watch knows what time it is.
A man with two watches is never quite sure.
doug metzler
2012-02-15 01:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Make sure you're wearing full breathing apparatus if you mill PCB material.

I was thinking along similar lines - why not Delrin or some other
appropriate plastic?

DougM

On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Erik Christiansen
Post by Erik Christiansen
Post by gene heskett
The encoder wheel
itself will be trapped between the spindle bearing lock buts.
Gene, have you considered using a piece of thin PCB material for the
encoder wheel, since all your sheet Al is toffee? A piece of the brown
phenolic stuff would be easier on the tool. Copper is needed on at
least one side, if the green fibreglass board is used, because it lets
too much light through. (About 34 years ago I was cautious enough to
check a piece before making a wheel, and switched to PVC sheet. But
I had more room, for a thicker wheel, than you do.)
Erik
--
A man with one watch knows what time it is.
A man with two watches is never quite sure.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
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gene heskett
2012-02-15 02:23:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by doug metzler
Make sure you're wearing full breathing apparatus if you mill PCB material.
I was thinking along similar lines - why not Delrin or some other
appropriate plastic?
DougM
How opaque to the IR is delrin? I have no clue without googling it.
Post by doug metzler
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Erik Christiansen
Post by Erik Christiansen
Post by gene heskett
The encoder wheel
itself will be trapped between the spindle bearing lock buts.
Gene, have you considered using a piece of thin PCB material for the
encoder wheel, since all your sheet Al is toffee? A piece of the brown
phenolic stuff would be easier on the tool. Copper is needed on at
least one side, if the green fibreglass board is used, because it lets
too much light through. (About 34 years ago I was cautious enough to
check a piece before making a wheel, and switched to PVC sheet. But
I had more room, for a thicker wheel, than you do.)
Erik
--
A man with one watch knows what time it is.
A man with two watches is never quite sure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------- Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/
_______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------ Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/
_______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings;
the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
-- Churchill
doug metzler
2012-02-15 02:47:57 UTC
Permalink
I don't know either, but I would think the black stuff would block
almost 100%, esp at low power levels - it's very high-density. What
thickness are you thinking?

DougM
Post by doug metzler
Make sure you're wearing full breathing apparatus if you mill PCB material.
I was thinking along similar lines - why not Delrin or some other
appropriate plastic?
DougM
How opaque to the IR is delrin?  I have no clue without googling it.
Post by doug metzler
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Erik Christiansen
Post by Erik Christiansen
Post by gene heskett
The encoder wheel
itself will be trapped between the spindle bearing lock buts.
Gene, have you considered using a piece of thin PCB material for the
encoder wheel, since all your sheet Al is toffee? A piece of the brown
phenolic stuff would be easier on the tool. Copper is needed on at
least one side, if the green fibreglass board is used, because it lets
too much light through. (About 34 years ago I was cautious enough to
check a piece before making a wheel, and switched to PVC sheet. But
I had more room, for a thicker wheel, than you do.)
Erik
--
A man with one watch knows what time it is.
A man with two watches is never quite sure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------- Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/
_______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------ Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/
_______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Cheers, Gene
--
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings;
the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
               -- Churchill
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/
_______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
gene heskett
2012-02-15 04:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by doug metzler
I don't know either, but I would think the black stuff would block
almost 100%, esp at low power levels - it's very high-density. What
thickness are you thinking?
DougM
1/16th on down to where it gets too flimsy. And I wasn't aware it could be
had in black. Tan & clear is all I've seen.

Thanks Doug.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Biology grows on you.
doug metzler
2012-02-15 04:48:50 UTC
Permalink
McMaster 8575K111 $8.80 for a 12"* 12" sheet. I guess it depends on
how many you're making, but It seems as though there are several
plastics that would work and would be much easier to slot than
aluminum.

Good luck,

DougM
Post by doug metzler
I don't know either, but I would think the black stuff would block
almost 100%, esp at low power levels - it's very high-density.  What
thickness are you thinking?
DougM
1/16th on down to where it gets too flimsy.  And I wasn't aware it could be
had in black.  Tan & clear is all I've seen.
Thanks Doug.
Cheers, Gene
--
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Biology grows on you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/
_______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
gene heskett
2012-02-15 05:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by doug metzler
McMaster 8575K111 $8.80 for a 12"* 12" sheet. I guess it depends on
how many you're making, but It seems as though there are several
plastics that would work and would be much easier to slot than
aluminum.
Good luck,
DougM
Thanks for looking that up Doug. ATM I'm waiting on mills, and have enough
brass on hand to make 2 dozen or more of them. I doubt if there is a
market for either of these though because I'm probably the only remaining
idiot out of 2 that wants to cnc a 7x10. The other idiot already did his,
I've seen the pix and I'm not well impressed. I think I can mess it up
even better. ;-)

Thanks Doug.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
You will attract cultured and artistic people to your home.
Roland Jollivet
2012-02-15 07:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by doug metzler
I don't know either, but I would think the black stuff would block
almost 100%, esp at low power levels - it's very high-density. What
thickness are you thinking?
DougM
1/16th on down to where it gets too flimsy. And I wasn't aware it could be
had in black. Tan & clear is all I've seen.
Thanks Doug.
Cheers, Gene
--
Is there any company in your area that that does lithographic printing?
They use bundles of thin (0.6mm) aluminium sheeting that they then discard.
It's very 'crinkly', so should machine well. I often see hundreds of
kilograms of it at the recycling yard.

Regards
Roland
gene heskett
2012-02-15 10:12:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Jollivet
Post by gene heskett
Post by doug metzler
I don't know either, but I would think the black stuff would block
almost 100%, esp at low power levels - it's very high-density. What
thickness are you thinking?
DougM
1/16th on down to where it gets too flimsy. And I wasn't aware it
could be had in black. Tan & clear is all I've seen.
Thanks Doug.
Cheers, Gene
--
Is there any company in your area that that does lithographic printing?
They use bundles of thin (0.6mm) aluminium sheeting that they then
discard. It's very 'crinkly', so should machine well. I often see
hundreds of kilograms of it at the recycling yard.
Regards
Roland
The only local job printer in these parts does her job work on offset
presses. Does fancier office stationary stuff. I don't know if she even
has a litho machine. I know what a litho plate looks like from 50 paces
but can't say as I've ever seen any at the 2 recycling places I get some of
my raw material from.

Thanks for the idea Roland.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
You will be given a post of trust and responsibility.
gene heskett
2012-02-15 02:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Christiansen
Post by gene heskett
The encoder wheel
itself will be trapped between the spindle bearing lock buts.
Gene, have you considered using a piece of thin PCB material for the
encoder wheel, since all your sheet Al is toffee? A piece of the brown
phenolic stuff would be easier on the tool. Copper is needed on at
least one side, if the green fibreglass board is used, because it lets
too much light through. (About 34 years ago I was cautious enough to
check a piece before making a wheel, and switched to PVC sheet. But
I had more room, for a thicker wheel, than you do.)
Erik
Well, that's another bone to throw in the soup I hadn't considered, mainly
because I think the nearest SS phenolic is probably 65 miles up the
interstate in Morgantown or possibly even in Pittsburgh. Thats order it on
the web distance.

But its a workable thought for sure Erik, thanks.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
The future lies ahead.
Jon Elson
2012-02-14 18:11:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Blodow
Climb milling is preferable if the backlash of your screw will permit
it. Blades will always cut into fresh material, less friction, less
heat. With small cutters, you may compensate for backlash with a fairly
large retaining spring.
Climb milling can be a problem when there is backlash, but with such a
small cutting tool,
I doubt it would be a problem. The cutting forces ought to be much less
than the slide
friction.

Jon
charles green
2012-02-14 11:04:21 UTC
Permalink
gene heskett
2012-02-14 12:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
something else to watch out for on the smaller end mills is a long - and
therefor flexible - shank. chuck the tool up into the spindle as far
as possible. this also reduces the effect of any small alignment
errors between the cutter's ideal axis of rotation, and its actual
(wobbly) rotation around the spindle axis.
That's common sense. :-)

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
The mother of the year should be a sterilized woman with two adopted
children.
-- Paul Ehrlich
gene heskett
2012-02-13 20:06:00 UTC
Permalink
something else to watch out for on the smaller end mills is a long - and therefor flexible - shank.  chuck the tool up into the spindle as far as possible.  this also reduces the effect of any small alignment errors between the cutter's ideal axis of rotation, and its actual (wobbly) rotation around the spindle axis. 

--- On Mon, 2/13/12, gene heskett <***@wdtv.com> wrote:


From: gene heskett <***@wdtv.com>
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Need advice on 1/16" end mill
To: emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 8:06 PM
Post by Dean Hedin
Yep, sorry, thought they had the high helix in the small size.
They do have pretty good prices otherwise.  I've bought quite a bit of
stuff from them in the past and had good experience.  - NVI
Get the short flute length if you can tolerate it.
Well, I've fooled around and lost today running down some suitable brass
for the next attempt, but I'll get some ordered tomorrow, as short as they
have.

Thanks Dean.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Heisenberg may have been here.
charles green
2012-02-14 11:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Przemek Klosowski
2012-02-13 19:06:00 UTC
Permalink
isopropanol does a nice job as tapping fluid for aluminum, and it doesnt leave a residue.  ..and it is readily available and inexpensive.

--- On Mon, 2/13/12, Przemek Klosowski <***@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Przemek Klosowski <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Need advice on 1/16" end mill
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 7:06 PM
       I did find a Russian video using alcohol for cooling.
I am not surprised---and I am sure that gherkins and bacon were involved too

(an old joke from where I grew up:
Medical team in an operating theater, lights, lots of surgical tools,
people quietly doing their work. The operating surgeon calls out to
the instrument nurse:

Large scalpel...

Small scalpel...

Alcohol...

Extractor...

Forceps...

Alcohol...

Sutures....

Alcohol...

Gherkin...
charles green
2012-02-14 11:46:43 UTC
Permalink
gene heskett
2012-02-13 04:19:00 UTC
Permalink
btw, the cutting edge of the tool is naturally in an oxygen free environment for most of the time that it is cutting anything other than air (or a thin oxide layer, which is not going to oxidize further).  it's in the metal.

--- On Mon, 2/13/12, gene heskett <***@wdtv.com> wrote:


From: gene heskett <***@wdtv.com>
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Need advice on 1/16" end mill
To: emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 4:19 AM
Post by Erik Christiansen
This particular sheet of alu seems to be dead soft.  The chips it was
making looked about the right size spinning around in the oil.
I don't have water out there other than used. :)  And no real drainage
system exists although I have considered just setting the whole mill
into a pan about an inch deep, if I could find a suitable pan.
Gene, if milling that shiny toffee is the only game in town, and there's
neither water nor drainage, then what about methylated spirits in a good
spray bottle? Lots of that should cool well, and evaporate.
The one time I milled soft Al sheet was once too often. The swarf welds
back onto the workpiece, the way I go at it. Definitely needs coolant,
but it's still masochism.
Do you have an unloved diecast box, or larger aluminium-ish cast
enclosure, with a sufficiently thick section that you can hack out? I've
found that milling cast Al can be done without coolant, and without
toffee-like tackiness. The swarf comes off cleanly, but a bit of metho
spray can help prevent eventual build-up.
Erik
Running under cutting oil, about 1/16" deep, is a shop that's showing
51F, really s/b cold enough.
My experience is limited, but for me, the oil just helps to keep the
swarf near the tool, and even drag it back between the tool and
workpiece. Perhaps I should have used a higher spindle speed, but it's a
pain to shuffle the belts on the 3/4 ton mill.
Soft Al is only good for melting down together with a bit of copper and
a bit of zinc, to make an alloy we can machine, I think.
Erik
Chuckle, I believe that may be the best solution yet for this crap. ;-)

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Where am I?  Who am I?  Am I?  I
charles green
2012-02-14 12:41:23 UTC
Permalink
gene heskett
2012-02-14 04:15:00 UTC
Permalink
maybe so, but the folks in the shop at work are always surprising me.

--- On Tue, 2/14/12, gene heskett <***@wdtv.com> wrote:


From: gene heskett <***@wdtv.com>
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Need advice on 1/16" end mill
To: emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:15 AM
Post by gene heskett
something else to watch out for on the smaller end mills is a long - and
therefor flexible - shank.  chuck the tool up into the spindle as far
as possible.  this also reduces the effect of any small alignment
errors between the cutter's ideal axis of rotation, and its actual
(wobbly) rotation around the spindle axis.
That's common sense. :-)

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
The mother of the year should be a sterilized woman with two adopted
children.
        -- Paul Ehrlich
charles green
2012-02-15 11:05:37 UTC
Permalink
gene heskett
2012-02-15 11:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
get a CD that
you dont want to listen to anymore, and cnc it out of that. and then
paint it black.
Now that might be (the old cd) a usable idea. I probably bin a 50 pack a
year of those, old data & distro's going obsolete mostly. And that should
be cheap enough even if I use a fresh cdr to serve as a test developing
tool. I don't recall ever seeing a cd get hot enough to warp either. I
can fine tune it 5 thou here, and 5 thou there to optimize the design very
easily.

I like that Charles, thanks. You'll go in style, for a while, on 16th
avenue. (by Roseann Cash, Johns daughter)

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
You have to admit that it's difficult to misplace the Perl sources. :-)
-- Larry Wall in <***@netlabs.com>
Roland Jollivet
2012-02-15 13:51:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by gene heskett
get a CD that
you dont want to listen to anymore, and cnc it out of that. and then
paint it black.
Now that might be (the old cd) a usable idea. I probably bin a 50 pack a
year of those, old data & distro's going obsolete mostly. And that should
be cheap enough even if I use a fresh cdr to serve as a test developing
tool. I don't recall ever seeing a cd get hot enough to warp either. I
can fine tune it 5 thou here, and 5 thou there to optimize the design very
easily.
I like that Charles, thanks. You'll go in style, for a while, on 16th
avenue. (by Roseann Cash, Johns daughter)
Cheers, Gene
--
Gee, forgot about that....
Many of the new 'lightscribe' DVD players can burn an image onto the
scribble side of the DVD, so see if you can just burn your encoder pattern
onto the surface. I'm sure it's been done a 100 times. Will look..

Maybe even experiment with turning the DVD upside down so you burn the
image on the code side.

Regards
Roland
gene heskett
2012-02-15 17:17:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Jollivet
Post by gene heskett
Post by gene heskett
get a CD that
you dont want to listen to anymore, and cnc it out of that. and
then paint it black.
Now that might be (the old cd) a usable idea. I probably bin a 50
pack a year of those, old data & distro's going obsolete mostly. And
that should be cheap enough even if I use a fresh cdr to serve as a
test developing tool. I don't recall ever seeing a cd get hot enough
to warp either. I can fine tune it 5 thou here, and 5 thou there to
optimize the design very easily.
I like that Charles, thanks. You'll go in style, for a while, on 16th
avenue. (by Roseann Cash, Johns daughter)
Cheers, Gene
--
Gee, forgot about that....
Many of the new 'lightscribe' DVD players can burn an image onto the
scribble side of the DVD, so see if you can just burn your encoder
pattern onto the surface. I'm sure it's been done a 100 times. Will
look..
Maybe even experiment with turning the DVD upside down so you burn the
image on the code side.
Regards
Roland
That won't fly Roland. 2 reasons.

I forgot to turn one over before I ran lightscribe, and it knew the disk
was upside down.

And to do that, we would need a working cut-sim to convert our gcode to an
image format (png?) lightscribe accepts. My little fishing expedition into
that over the last 24 hours seems to have disclosed that none of the trails
I followed have led to working code, the closest I got was openscam which I
had to build, but then fails to do anything useful, and that the best
'preview' of what I want to do is likely to be obtained by making it out of
a cd & perhaps a coat of black paint.

All this could be satisfied by my proposed additional field in the
tooltable that would enable, perhaps as a preview only translation as the
code loads, which would turn the backtrace plot into a great preview by
utilizing the selected tools diameter as the width of the path to trace,
perhaps even using a different color for each tool size, as opposed to the
current 1 pixel wide wire frame of the tools center line path. I can see
where this is certainly not a run time option for obvious video horsepower
needed reasons, not to mention the video memory required. Other than
loading time growing by 500x for the preview only render, it would still be
cheaper than the worn tooling and materiel cut up only to find there isn't
room enough to make it work that way.

To my train of thought, even the cut-sim approach, which might be
theoretically correct, seems like patently the wrong approach when just
translating the gcode into a brush the width of the tools diameter and then
tracing out the XY motions only where Z is negative, would do a quite
decent job of rendering a 2D preview. Heck, even a plugin for gimp would
help, but we are I think predisposed to want to see that in the axis
backplot window so we also can see the zoomable image with a measurement
scale.

The utility value of such an option was why I asked. Perhaps this is
something that none of the other competing high dollar stuff like mach etc
can do? I have never seen Mach other than as thumbnails of its screen so I
can't write about it.

Thinking that freecad may have grown an import gcode function, I even put
my machine on the daily build list for that, but it seems not, the open
menu has the import/export functions greyed out until a legit file has been
loaded. I did note that the docs for freecad have grown until they are 2x
the size of the freecad package itself, so this alone will put it on many
more machines. Great progress in a year or so IMO.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Love America -- or give it back.
Roland Jollivet
2012-02-15 17:34:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by Roland Jollivet
Post by gene heskett
Post by gene heskett
get a CD that
you dont want to listen to anymore, and cnc it out of that. and
then paint it black.
Now that might be (the old cd) a usable idea. I probably bin a 50
pack a year of those, old data & distro's going obsolete mostly. And
that should be cheap enough even if I use a fresh cdr to serve as a
test developing tool. I don't recall ever seeing a cd get hot enough
to warp either. I can fine tune it 5 thou here, and 5 thou there to
optimize the design very easily.
I like that Charles, thanks. You'll go in style, for a while, on 16th
avenue. (by Roseann Cash, Johns daughter)
Cheers, Gene
--
Gee, forgot about that....
Many of the new 'lightscribe' DVD players can burn an image onto the
scribble side of the DVD, so see if you can just burn your encoder
pattern onto the surface. I'm sure it's been done a 100 times. Will
look..
Maybe even experiment with turning the DVD upside down so you burn the
image on the code side.
Regards
Roland
That won't fly Roland. 2 reasons.
I forgot to turn one over before I ran lightscribe, and it knew the disk
was upside down.
And to do that, we would need a working cut-sim to convert our gcode to an
image format (png?) lightscribe accepts. My little fishing expedition into
that over the last 24 hours seems to have disclosed that none of the trails
I followed have led to working code, the closest I got was openscam which I
had to build, but then fails to do anything useful, and that the best
'preview' of what I want to do is likely to be obtained by making it out of
a cd & perhaps a coat of black paint.
All this could be satisfied by my proposed additional field in the
tooltable that would enable, perhaps as a preview only translation as the
code loads, which would turn the backtrace plot into a great preview by
utilizing the selected tools diameter as the width of the path to trace,
perhaps even using a different color for each tool size, as opposed to the
current 1 pixel wide wire frame of the tools center line path. I can see
where this is certainly not a run time option for obvious video horsepower
needed reasons, not to mention the video memory required. Other than
loading time growing by 500x for the preview only render, it would still be
cheaper than the worn tooling and materiel cut up only to find there isn't
room enough to make it work that way.
Have you seen this;
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1527

Might be of use.

Regards
Roland
gene heskett
2012-02-15 18:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Jollivet
Have you seen this;
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1527
Might be of use.
Regards
Roland
Looks as if it could be so I pulled it, thanks Roland.


Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
for ARTIFICIAL FLAVORING!!
k***@gmail.com
2012-02-15 15:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by gene heskett
get a CD that
you dont want to listen to anymore, and cnc it out of that. and then
paint it black.
Now that might be (the old cd) a usable idea. I probably bin a 50 pack a
year of those, old data & distro's going obsolete mostly. And that should
be cheap enough even if I use a fresh cdr to serve as a test developing
tool. I don't recall ever seeing a cd get hot enough to warp either. I
can fine tune it 5 thou here, and 5 thou there to optimize the design very
easily.
A hardrive disk?
gene heskett
2012-02-15 17:26:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@gmail.com
Post by gene heskett
Post by gene heskett
get a CD that
you dont want to listen to anymore, and cnc it out of that. and then
paint it black.
Now that might be (the old cd) a usable idea. I probably bin a 50
pack a year of those, old data & distro's going obsolete mostly. And
that should be cheap enough even if I use a fresh cdr to serve as a
test developing tool. I don't recall ever seeing a cd get hot enough
to warp either. I can fine tune it 5 thou here, and 5 thou there to
optimize the design very easily.
A hardrive disk?
Glass? That doesn't sound like it would be easily worked. Really old ones,
alu maybe as I expect there's nothing gummy about that alloy. I do have a
drive or 6 that could be sacrificed on that altar though. Packratitis is a
serious disease, you could get killed in an earthquake that way. :)


Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours.
-- Messiah's Handbook : Reminders for the Advanced Soul
dave
2012-02-15 19:45:17 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:26:20 -0500
Post by gene heskett
Post by k***@gmail.com
Post by gene heskett
Post by gene heskett
get a CD that
you dont want to listen to anymore, and cnc it out of that. and
then paint it black.
Now that might be (the old cd) a usable idea. I probably bin a 50
pack a year of those, old data & distro's going obsolete mostly.
And that should be cheap enough even if I use a fresh cdr to
serve as a test developing tool. I don't recall ever seeing a cd
get hot enough to warp either. I can fine tune it 5 thou here,
and 5 thou there to optimize the design very easily.
A hardrive disk?
Glass? That doesn't sound like it would be easily worked. Really old
ones, alu maybe as I expect there's nothing gummy about that alloy.
I do have a drive or 6 that could be sacrificed on that altar
though. Packratitis is a serious disease, you could get killed in an
earthquake that way. :)
Ah! yes, but chrome plated glass is perfect for a photoetch job.
If the disc is Al or steel with a chrome/nickel layer on top then
machining should not be too difficult.

Just my tuppence.

Dave
Post by gene heskett
Cheers, Gene
gene heskett
2012-02-15 19:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by dave
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:26:20 -0500
Post by gene heskett
Post by k***@gmail.com
On Wednesday, February 15, 2012 06:35:36 AM charles green did
Post by gene heskett
get a CD that
you dont want to listen to anymore, and cnc it out of that. and
then paint it black.
Now that might be (the old cd) a usable idea. I probably bin a 50
pack a year of those, old data & distro's going obsolete mostly.
And that should be cheap enough even if I use a fresh cdr to
serve as a test developing tool. I don't recall ever seeing a cd
get hot enough to warp either. I can fine tune it 5 thou here,
and 5 thou there to optimize the design very easily.
A hardrive disk?
Glass? That doesn't sound like it would be easily worked. Really old
ones, alu maybe as I expect there's nothing gummy about that alloy.
I do have a drive or 6 that could be sacrificed on that altar
though. Packratitis is a serious disease, you could get killed in an
earthquake that way. :)
Ah! yes, but chrome plated glass is perfect for a photoetch job.
Maybe, but I'd have to make several just for insurance in case I bumped it
with a wrench working in that area. My metal one when I get it done,
should be able to take an errant wrench tap.
Post by dave
If the disc is Al or steel with a chrome/nickel layer on top then
machining should not be too difficult.
Just my tuppence.
Mine too. Too bad nobody applies the inflation to maintain its worth over
the years. ;-)
Post by dave
Dave
Post by gene heskett
Cheers, Gene
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------ Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/
_______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Nasrudin walked into a teahouse and declaimed, "The moon is more useful
than the sun."
"Why?", he was asked.
"Because at night we need the light more."
Mark Cason
2012-02-15 23:32:11 UTC
Permalink
andy pugh
2012-02-16 08:01:13 UTC
Permalink
  The CNRPPPT is a proprietary blend of metals that I'm still under
NDA.   I can tell you that the C is Chrome, the N is Nickel, one of the
P's is Platinum, and that's all I can tell you.
Oooh! That sounds like a fun game. I am going for Rhenium and Tantalum
for two of them.

(Actually, maybe not Tantalum, as the sputtering machine I ran for a
while used that as the sample holders because of its particularly low
souttering rate)
--
atp
The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong.
Steve Blackmore
2012-02-15 20:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by gene heskett
get a CD that
you dont want to listen to anymore, and cnc it out of that. and then
paint it black.
Now that might be (the old cd) a usable idea. I probably bin a 50 pack a
year of those, old data & distro's going obsolete mostly. And that should
be cheap enough even if I use a fresh cdr to serve as a test developing
tool. I don't recall ever seeing a cd get hot enough to warp either. I
can fine tune it 5 thou here, and 5 thou there to optimize the design very
easily.
Gene - the encoder wheel I use is 3mm Tufnol sheet, painted black.
Cheap, flat and easy to machine. I fitted an aluminium hub with a keyway
to engage the key on spindle shaft. It's simply sandwiched up against
the pulleys with a collar.

Steve Blackmore
--
gene heskett
2012-02-15 21:29:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Blackmore
Post by gene heskett
Post by gene heskett
get a CD that
you dont want to listen to anymore, and cnc it out of that. and then
paint it black.
Now that might be (the old cd) a usable idea. I probably bin a 50 pack
a year of those, old data & distro's going obsolete mostly. And that
should be cheap enough even if I use a fresh cdr to serve as a test
developing tool. I don't recall ever seeing a cd get hot enough to
warp either. I can fine tune it 5 thou here, and 5 thou there to
optimize the design very easily.
Gene - the encoder wheel I use is 3mm Tufnol sheet, painted black.
Cheap, flat and easy to machine. I fitted an aluminium hub with a keyway
to engage the key on spindle shaft. It's simply sandwiched up against
the pulleys with a collar.
Steve Blackmore
The plastic, except for temporary fitting wouldn't do for permanent as it
will be trapped between the spindle preload nut, and it's locking nut in
normal operation. That is driven tight with a drift punch in the nut
slots. The plastic will 'cold flow', loosening the nut, and that won't be
good for things.

I've been fooling with that bit of postscript, adjusting it to arrive at a
fit, but for slot type opto's its not as good a deal as it would be with
reflectance types as it appears to be best done with the opto's arranged in
a radial line as opposed to having the slot types in a straight line. The
radial line would have the advantage that the quadrature is fairly well
fixed in that case as opposed to using a single high frequency track being
watched by 2 opto's whose spacing would be trimmed a bit to hit the needed
quadrature on the o-scope. Because the postscript puts the index marker
inside the main track it would make sense to just increase the depth
radially of one slot & let the center opto device become the Z signal since
it's tracking a smaller circle. The problem then might be better handled
by further modifying the gcode I have so instead of an index slot in the
rim, just extend one slot inward radially far enough to make the B the Z
and vise-versa. The center opto then would need to be pushed sideways a
bit to get the actual index edge to be centered in the A+B=(1 or 0 state)
in order to get a true index edge.

That will be investigated too, but I have got to get off my butt and go
burn some sugar, a 2 gram breakfast muffin just put me north of 300, not
good at all when ones breath smells like acetone so I'm killing both my
feet and my kidneys. Dammit, I need bits to get me busy & they are still 2
days away. Sigh.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
Barth's Distinction:
There are two types of people: those who divide people into two
types, and those who don't.
andy pugh
2012-02-16 07:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by gene heskett
Post by Steve Blackmore
Gene - the encoder wheel I use is 3mm Tufnol sheet, painted black.
The plastic, except for temporary fitting wouldn't do for permanent as it
will be trapped between the spindle preload nut, and it's locking nut in
normal operation.  That is driven tight with a drift punch in the nut
slots.  The plastic will 'cold flow', loosening the nut, and that won't be
good for things.
Tufnol won't cold-flow, it's phenolic paper (or phenolic fabric).
Long-term stability is one of the properties they sell it on.
http://www.tufnol.com/tufnol/default.asp?id=92
"creep is minimal"
--
atp
The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong.
gene heskett
2012-02-14 18:21:00 UTC
Permalink
color some notecard stock black with a sharpie, then spray paint it black to stiffen it more.  or laminate several thicknesses of thin black cloth with black resin of some sort (jb weld is kinda blackish), then paint that black.  or, put a bunch of staples on the circumference of a dowel, clip away all but one leg of each of the protruding staples, and then paint everything black.  or, cnc the pattern on some flattened aluminum can foil with an awl point or a pin or a pen, cut the pattern out with scissors, and paint it black. or, get a CD that you dont want to listen to anymore, and cnc it out of that.  and then paint it black.

--- On Tue, 2/14/12, gene heskett <***@wdtv.com> wrote:


From: gene heskett <***@wdtv.com>
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Encoder wheel [Was: Need advice on 1/16" end mill]
To: emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 6:21 PM
Post by Erik Christiansen
Post by gene heskett
The encoder wheel
itself will be trapped between the spindle bearing lock buts.
Gene, have you considered using a piece of thin PCB material for the
encoder wheel, since all your sheet Al is toffee? A piece of the brown
phenolic stuff would be easier on the tool. Copper is needed on at
least one side, if the green fibreglass board is used, because it lets
too much light through. (About 34 years ago I was cautious enough to
check a piece before making a wheel, and switched to PVC sheet. But
I had more room, for a thicker wheel, than you do.)
Erik
Well, that's another bone to throw in the soup I hadn't considered, mainly
because I think the nearest SS phenolic is probably 65 miles up the
interstate in Morgantown or possibly even in Pittsburgh.  Thats order it on
the web distance.

But its a workable thought for sure Erik, thanks.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
The future lies ahead.
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by dave
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:26:20 -0500
Post by gene heskett
Post by k***@gmail.com
A hardrive disk?
Glass? That doesn't sound like it would be easily worked. Really old
ones, alu maybe as I expect there's nothing gummy about that alloy.
I do have a drive or 6 that could be sacrificed on that altar
though. Packratitis is a serious disease, you could get killed in an
earthquake that way. :)
Ah! yes, but chrome plated glass is perfect for a photoetch job.
If the disc is Al or steel with a chrome/nickel layer on top then
machining should not be too difficult.
It may be harder than you think... When I was maintaining sputtering
machines, the first thing we did, was sputter the glass disks with
nickel, and then a alloy called CNRPPPT, then pure carbon. After
failure analysis, long chain polymer was applied to cut down on air
resistance, and provide minimal protection from head crashes.

The CNRPPPT is a proprietary blend of metals that I'm still under
NDA. I can tell you that the C is Chrome, the N is Nickel, one of the
P's is Platinum, and that's all I can tell you.
--
-Mark

Ne M'oubliez ---Family Motto
Hope for the best, plan for the worst ---Personal Motto
charles green
2012-02-16 10:56:27 UTC
Permalink
andy pugh
2012-02-16 00:01:00 UTC
Permalink
i've mostly dealt a proprietary formula called GFY, mostly.
 

--- On Thu, 2/16/12, andy pugh <***@gmail.com> wrote:


From: andy pugh <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Encoder wheel [Was: Need advice on 1/16" end mill]
To: ***@yahoo.com, "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Date: Thursday, February 16, 2012, 12:01 AM
  The CNRPPPT is a proprietary blend of metals that I'm still under
NDA.   I can tell you that the C is Chrome, the N is Nickel, one of the
P's is Platinum, and that's all I can tell you.
Oooh! That sounds like a fun game. I am going for Rhenium and Tantalum
for two of them.

(Actually, maybe not Tantalum, as the sputtering machine I ran for a
while used that as the sample holders because of its particularly low
souttering rate)
--
atp
The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong.
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