Discussion:
Big Iron
(too old to reply)
dave
2010-11-17 20:56:53 UTC
Permalink
Just checked with Tolt Manufacturing, Inc.

http://toltmachineworks.com/aboutus.aspx



Open house which was (apparently) scheduled for tomorrow has been moved
to Jan 13, 10:00 to 5:00.
Hope to see all the locals (?) there.

Dave
Sven Wesley
2010-11-17 22:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Would love to see images on that 5-axis...

-Sven

2010/11/17 dave <***@charter.net>

> Just checked with Tolt Manufacturing, Inc.
>
> http://toltmachineworks.com/aboutus.aspx
>
>
>
> Open house which was (apparently) scheduled for tomorrow has been moved
> to Jan 13, 10:00 to 5:00.
> Hope to see all the locals (?) there.
>
> Dave
>
>
Viesturs Lācis
2010-11-18 07:34:12 UTC
Permalink
I had not noticed that part of page about their 5 axis machine.
"a machining volume of X=300” (7.65m) by Y=96” (2.4m) by Z=96” (2.4m)"
- sounds like it is almost as large as my bedroom. But I wonder, if I
have not missed something:
in those pictures, where they are building the base for the machine:
in 2nd picture from above there is a man in far left corner.
do I understand correctly that in 4th picture they have filled with
concrete all the space up to the level and even more, where the guy in
2nd picture is standing?

if that is just a base for machine, I suspect that the machine itself
also will be very massive and very heavy to provide for rigidity and
vibration damping in order to achieve the high precision in
hard-to-machine materials. so the question is - what kind of
bearings/slides are there to be used and what kind of actuators are to
be used for such a machine? the same old Hiwin rails, but 3 or 4
instead of one and same old ballscrews with some extreme 10" diameter?

Viesturs

2010/11/18 Sven Wesley <***@gmail.com>:
> Would love to see images on that 5-axis...
>
> -Sven
>
> 2010/11/17 dave <***@charter.net>
>
>> Just checked with Tolt Manufacturing, Inc.
>>
>> http://toltmachineworks.com/aboutus.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>> Open house which was (apparently) scheduled for tomorrow has been moved
>> to Jan 13, 10:00 to 5:00.
>> Hope to see all the locals (?) there.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
Andy Pugh
2010-11-18 11:18:36 UTC
Permalink
On 18 November 2010 07:34, Viesturs Lācis <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> if that is just a base for machine, I suspect that the machine itself
> also will be very massive and very heavy to provide for rigidity and
> vibration damping in order to achieve the high precision in
> hard-to-machine materials. so the question is - what kind of
> bearings/slides are there to be used and what kind of actuators are to
> be used for such a machine? the same old Hiwin rails, but 3 or 4
> instead of one and same old ballscrews with some extreme 10" diameter?

Have you seen this new-build from Dean Smith and Grace? It seems to
use linear tracks:
http://www.deansmithandgrace.co.uk/icms_assets/files/Travelling_Gantry_Machine.pdf

--
atp
Mark Wendt
2010-11-18 11:48:57 UTC
Permalink
On 11/18/2010 06:18 AM, Andy Pugh wrote:
> if that is just a base for machine, I suspect that the machine itself
>> also will be very massive and very heavy to provide for rigidity and
>> vibration damping in order to achieve the high precision in
>> hard-to-machine materials. so the question is - what kind of
>> bearings/slides are there to be used and what kind of actuators are to
>> be used for such a machine? the same old Hiwin rails, but 3 or 4
>> instead of one and same old ballscrews with some extreme 10" diameter?
>>
> Have you seen this new-build from Dean Smith and Grace? It seems to
> use linear tracks:
> http://www.deansmithandgrace.co.uk/icms_assets/files/Travelling_Gantry_Machine.pdf

I think Stuart needs one a them in his shop. ;-)

Mark
Viesturs Lācis
2010-11-18 12:49:22 UTC
Permalink
2010/11/18 Andy Pugh <***@andypugh.fsnet.co.uk>:
> On 18 November 2010 07:34, Viesturs Lācis <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> if that is just a base for machine, I suspect that the machine itself
>> also will be very massive and very heavy to provide for rigidity and
>> vibration damping in order to achieve the high precision in
>> hard-to-machine materials. so the question is - what kind of
>> bearings/slides are there to be used and what kind of actuators are to
>> be used for such a machine? the same old Hiwin rails, but 3 or 4
>> instead of one and same old ballscrews with some extreme 10" diameter?
>
> Have you seen this new-build from Dean Smith and Grace? It seems to
> use linear tracks:
> http://www.deansmithandgrace.co.uk/icms_assets/files/Travelling_Gantry_Machine.pdf
>

Wow!!! No, I had not seen anything like that, thanks for sharing!.
This article just keeps on raising more questions! I would appreciate,
if anyone could share their insights.
1) What is the point to have Z axis and also W axis in one machine?
Either of them changes tool's position along Z axis. Using them both
simultaneously does not make sense to me.
2) Ok, there are ballscrews for Z and W axis. Where can I find some
more information about the hydraulic counter-balancing? What is it's
purpose and how it works?
3) Any ideas about the precision of this monster?
4) I am curious about the approximate number in the contract :))
Article says multi-million...

It seems to me that those guys can mill a car's bodywork from a single
piece of material. Those guys that have to make the clay models for
each new model would be happy to have this little friend and get a
chance for A LOT of poker games. Or whatever they prefer.

/vie
Igor Chudov
2010-11-18 13:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Which brings up a question.

How did they make propellers for big ships in the old times without 3D CNC?
Dave Caroline
2010-11-18 13:15:18 UTC
Permalink
enjoy
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process

Dave Caroline (archivist)

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Igor Chudov <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Which brings up a question.
>
> How did they make propellers for big ships in the old times without 3D CNC?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Beautiful is writing same markup. Internet Explorer 9 supports
> standards for HTML5, CSS3, SVG 1.1,  ECMAScript5, and DOM L2 & L3.
> Spend less time writing and  rewriting code and more time creating great
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> _______________________________________________
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>
Claude Froidevaux
2010-11-18 15:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Le 18.11.2010 14:15, Dave Caroline a écrit :
> enjoy
> http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
>
> Dave Caroline (archivist)

Thanks, beautiful pictures !
Viesturs Lācis
2010-11-18 15:53:11 UTC
Permalink
2010/11/18 Dave Caroline <***@gmail.com>:
> enjoy
> http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
>
> Dave Caroline (archivist)
>
> On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Igor Chudov <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Which brings up a question.
>>
>> How did they make propellers for big ships in the old times without 3D CNC?
>>

Unfortunately, this link does not really answer, how exactly the
propellers were made, because I also think that those curved surfaces
are pretty tricky to get. Unless they cast them in molds. But that
page had reeeeeeally nice insights, on how some other parts were made.
Especially engine cranckshafts. How thick were those blocks that were
cut with [probably] oxy-gas? One meter? My waterjet cannot do even a
quarter of that thickness. Awesome.

Now that is where one would have a job for lifetime to convert ALL
those lathes, mills and god-knows-how-they-call-them to EMC2.

2010/11/18 Andy Pugh <***@andypugh.fsnet.co.uk>:
> On 18 November 2010 12:49, Viesturs Lācis <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Probably just a hydraulic cylinder with a pressure regulator and pump.
> With the regulator set to a pressure where it will almost, but not
> quite, lift the gantry the ballscrew torque needed to move the gantry
> is equalised. This is likely to make axis tuning a whole lot easier,
> and will also significantly reduce wear.
>

Thanks, that beam weight compensation makes perfect sense!

2010/11/18 Sven Wesley <***@gmail.com>:
> 2010/11/18 Andy Pugh <***@andypugh.fsnet.co.uk>
>
>>
>> I imagine that the "beam" is a lot stiffer than the "quill". You
>> probably machine with the "quill" retracted as far as you can, but can
>> still reach down inside things when required.
>>
>>
> Yes, and it's also a speed thing. Accelerating only one part takes time
> because of the weight itself, if both moves it goes much faster.
>

Could be. I would love to see this beauty in action - I can't really
imagine, how a Z axis movement speed might be an issue in a 250-ton
machine.
This machine is out of the world that I am used to live in :))

/vie
Jon Elson
2010-11-18 17:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Viesturs Lācis wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, this link does not really answer, how exactly the
> propellers were made, because I also think that those curved surfaces
> are pretty tricky to get. Unless they cast them in molds.
They cast them in bronze, but made them oversize. Then, they had a
bunch of "lofts"
I believe they were called, scaled up from the drawings, probably made
of wood. These were laid over the blades at the appropriate distance
from the hub and the gap was sighted. Grinders were used to remove
material, and then the lofts were test-fitted again. Eventually, the
lofts showed the curve was correct and they moved to the next blade.

Jon
William Baden
2010-11-19 00:54:04 UTC
Permalink
Andy Pugh
2010-11-18 13:25:07 UTC
Permalink
On 18 November 2010 12:49, Viesturs Lācis <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> 1) What is the point to have Z axis and also W axis in one machine?
> Either of them changes tool's position along Z axis. Using them both
> simultaneously does not make sense to me.

I imagine that the "beam" is a lot stiffer than the "quill". You
probably machine with the "quill" retracted as far as you can, but can
still reach down inside things when required.

> 2) Ok, there are ballscrews for Z and W axis. Where can I find some
> more information about the hydraulic counter-balancing?

Probably just a hydraulic cylinder with a pressure regulator and pump.
With the regulator set to a pressure where it will almost, but not
quite, lift the gantry the ballscrew torque needed to move the gantry
is equalised. This is likely to make axis tuning a whole lot easier,
and will also significantly reduce wear.

--
atp
Stuart Stevenson
2010-11-18 13:51:52 UTC
Permalink
I see an EMC2 retrofit candidate.


--
dos centavos
Mark Wendt
2010-11-18 13:58:38 UTC
Permalink
On 11/18/2010 08:51 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> I see an EMC2 retrofit candidate.

;-) When does it get delivered to your shop?

Mark
Sven Wesley
2010-11-18 15:28:28 UTC
Permalink
2010/11/18 Andy Pugh <***@andypugh.fsnet.co.uk>

> On 18 November 2010 12:49, Viesturs Lācis <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > 1) What is the point to have Z axis and also W axis in one machine?
> > Either of them changes tool's position along Z axis. Using them both
> > simultaneously does not make sense to me.
>
> I imagine that the "beam" is a lot stiffer than the "quill". You
> probably machine with the "quill" retracted as far as you can, but can
> still reach down inside things when required.
>
>
Yes, and it's also a speed thing. Accelerating only one part takes time
because of the weight itself, if both moves it goes much faster.

Regards,
Sven
Kirk Wallace
2010-11-18 17:35:12 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 2010-11-18 at 14:49 +0200, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
... snip
> 1) What is the point to have Z axis and also W axis in one machine?

My guess is for speed without loosing range. The Z is short but fast,
the W long.

> 2) Ok, there are ballscrews for Z and W axis. Where can I find some
> more information about the hydraulic counter-balancing? What is it's
> purpose and how it works?

As Andy said, the hydraulics offset the weight of the W/Z so that the
axis motors only drive the mass and cutting forces. Many bed CNC
machines have a chain that goes over the top of the machine then
attaches to a weight that equals the head weight, kind of like an
elevator. The problem here is that you now have to move twice the mass.
When I get around to finishing my Bridgeport mill, I plan on having a
pair of pneumatic cylinders pushing up on the knee to take some of the
load off the knee ball screw.

> 3) Any ideas about the precision of this monster?

A while back, I think there was a similar machine installed at Scaled
Composites which had an accuracy of +/- .05mm (.002"). I'm a bit foggy
on the specifics and there doesn't seem to be a link at their website
any more. I believe this machine had linear motors on the X and Y. The
DSG machine seems to be pretty traditional with rack and pinion for X,
and ball screws for the rest. The W screws seem a little wimpy to me, I
wonder if there are another set or two, on the back and sides?

> 4) I am curious about the approximate number in the contract :))
> Article says multi-million...
>
> It seems to me that those guys can mill a car's bodywork from a single
> piece of material. Those guys that have to make the clay models for
> each new model would be happy to have this little friend and get a
> chance for A LOT of poker games. Or whatever they prefer.
>
> /vie

In the shop I worked for, we would debur and sand the machine marks off
the parts between loading the CNC, or sweep the floor, or skim the oil
off the bulk coolant tank, or load another machine, or cut blanks,
or ... Every work minute and every piece of tooling and material was
scheduled and tracked. I like my current boss better.
--
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA
Viesturs Lācis
2010-11-18 19:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Thank You, guys, for explanations!

2010/11/18 Kirk Wallace <***@wallacecompany.com>:
>
> In the shop I worked for, we would debur and sand the machine marks off
> the parts between loading the CNC, or sweep the floor, or skim the oil
> off the bulk coolant tank, or load another machine, or cut blanks,
> or ...  Every work minute and every piece of tooling and material was
> scheduled and tracked. I like my current boss better.
>

And there is one very very very nice word for that - productivity :))

/vie
Kirk Wallace
2010-11-18 21:21:35 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 2010-11-18 at 21:54 +0200, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
... snip
> > or ... Every work minute and every piece of tooling and material was
> > scheduled and tracked. I like my current boss better.
> >
>
> And there is one very very very nice word for that - productivity :))
>
> /vie

It was very stressful, you couldn't take time to insure that you didn't
make any mistakes, and you were given just enough material and time for
the job, so you couldn't make any mistakes. For the what machinists get
paid these days and the lack of any flexibility, learning or any joy in
the work, I had to quit. Life is just too short not to enjoy or be
inspired by what you do. Unfortunately, I don't enjoy being hungry
either, but it could be inspirational.

--
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA
Jon Elson
2010-11-18 17:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Viesturs La-cis wrote:
> if that is just a base for machine, I suspect that the machine itself
> also will be very massive and very heavy to provide for rigidity and
> vibration damping in order to achieve the high precision in
> hard-to-machine materials. so the question is - what kind of
> bearings/slides are there to be used and what kind of actuators are to
> be used for such a machine? the same old Hiwin rails, but 3 or 4
> instead of one and same old ballscrews with some extreme 10" diameter?
>
Some of the very large machines are hydrostatic. They look very much
like conventional
box ways, but have an oil port in the center, and and a hydraulic pump
provides a steady
flow of oil to the bearing pad. There is usually some scheme of bladders
or wipers and a
scavenge pump to return the oil to the lube system. Stuart Stevenson at
MPM has a Gidding and Lewis
horizontal boring mill like that, I think the table is about 50 feet long.

Jon
sam sokolik
2010-11-18 17:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Our K&T has boxed ways with recirculating roller bearings.

http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/tikkoway.JPG
(isn't the exact type but similar) - so each axis has 12 each.

sam

On 11/18/2010 11:15 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Viesturs La-cis wrote:
>> if that is just a base for machine, I suspect that the machine itself
>> also will be very massive and very heavy to provide for rigidity and
>> vibration damping in order to achieve the high precision in
>> hard-to-machine materials. so the question is - what kind of
>> bearings/slides are there to be used and what kind of actuators are to
>> be used for such a machine? the same old Hiwin rails, but 3 or 4
>> instead of one and same old ballscrews with some extreme 10" diameter?
>>
> Some of the very large machines are hydrostatic. They look very much
> like conventional
> box ways, but have an oil port in the center, and and a hydraulic pump
> provides a steady
> flow of oil to the bearing pad. There is usually some scheme of bladders
> or wipers and a
> scavenge pump to return the oil to the lube system. Stuart Stevenson at
> MPM has a Gidding and Lewis
> horizontal boring mill like that, I think the table is about 50 feet long.
>
> Jon
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Beautiful is writing same markup. Internet Explorer 9 supports
> standards for HTML5, CSS3, SVG 1.1, ECMAScript5, and DOM L2& L3.
> Spend less time writing and rewriting code and more time creating great
> experiences on the web. Be a part of the beta today
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/msIE9-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
Stuart Stevenson
2010-11-18 18:00:14 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Jon Elson <***@pico-systems.com> wrote:

> Viesturs La-cis wrote:
> > if that is just a base for machine, I suspect that the machine itself
> > also will be very massive and very heavy to provide for rigidity and
> > vibration damping in order to achieve the high precision in
> > hard-to-machine materials. so the question is - what kind of
> > bearings/slides are there to be used and what kind of actuators are to
> > be used for such a machine? the same old Hiwin rails, but 3 or 4
> > instead of one and same old ballscrews with some extreme 10" diameter?
> >
> Some of the very large machines are hydrostatic. They look very much
> like conventional
> box ways, but have an oil port in the center, and and a hydraulic pump
> provides a steady
> flow of oil to the bearing pad. There is usually some scheme of bladders
> or wipers and a
> scavenge pump to return the oil to the lube system. Stuart Stevenson at
> MPM has a Gidding and Lewis
> horizontal boring mill like that, I think the table is about 50 feet long.
>
The G&L X axis table is around 10 feet long. The machine is considerably
longer to handle the 110 inches of X travel. The ways are hydrostatic. There
are bladders, oil pumps and vacuum pumps to make the way system work. The
bladders are essentially a flattened copper tube, plugged on one end,
plugged and ported on the other end. These bladders sit behind the gib.
Hydraulic pressure expands the bladders to push the gib against the way.
This being my only machine with hydrostatic ways limits my assessment. I
like the concept. It is difficult to eliminate the leaks so I just try to
minimize the leaks and capture the oil. With this you don't have to worry
about the machine rusting.
The coolant reservoir is the entire pit the machine sits in. The oil is
very effective in reducing coolant water loss to evaporation.
thanks
Stuart

--
dos centavos
Igor Chudov
2010-11-18 18:04:19 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Stuart Stevenson <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>  The coolant reservoir is the entire pit the machine sits in. The oil is
> very effective in reducing coolant water loss to evaporation.

Stuart, does the coolant become rancid due to being covered with oil?
Do you have to manage that?

i
Stuart Stevenson
2010-11-18 18:12:49 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Igor Chudov <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Stuart Stevenson <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > The coolant reservoir is the entire pit the machine sits in. The oil is
> > very effective in reducing coolant water loss to evaporation.
>
> Stuart, does the coolant become rancid due to being covered with oil?
> Do you have to manage that?
>
a constant problem - we skim it to collect what we can - we watch the PH and
concentration

>
>
--
dos centavos
Igor Chudov
2010-11-18 18:19:43 UTC
Permalink
I see. I use hangsterfers S500 coolant and its seems to be pretty
immune to this problem.

I am allergic to bad coolant.

I got a belt and disk tramp oil remover and will soon put it in the
mill to augment the coolant antibacterial properties.


i

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Stuart Stevenson <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Igor Chudov <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Stuart Stevenson <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >  The coolant reservoir is the entire pit the machine sits in. The oil is
>> > very effective in reducing coolant water loss to evaporation.
>>
>> Stuart, does the coolant become rancid due to being covered with oil?
>> Do you have to manage that?
>>
> a constant problem - we skim it to collect what we can - we watch the PH and
> concentration
>
>>
>>
> --
> dos centavos
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Beautiful is writing same markup. Internet Explorer 9 supports
> standards for HTML5, CSS3, SVG 1.1,  ECMAScript5, and DOM L2 & L3.
> Spend less time writing and  rewriting code and more time creating great
> experiences on the web. Be a part of the beta today
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/msIE9-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
c***@hotmail.com
2010-11-18 18:50:16 UTC
Permalink
At one shop I worked at we found if we left a coolant pump on all the time the coolant stayed fresh longer on the drill presses. Probably cause the pump airiated the coolant
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network

-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Stevenson <***@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 12:12:49
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)<emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\)"
<emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Big Iron

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Igor Chudov <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Stuart Stevenson <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > The coolant reservoir is the entire pit the machine sits in. The oil is
> > very effective in reducing coolant water loss to evaporation.
>
> Stuart, does the coolant become rancid due to being covered with oil?
> Do you have to manage that?
>
a constant problem - we skim it to collect what we can - we watch the PH and
concentration

>
>
--
dos centavos
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Beautiful is writing same markup. Internet Explorer 9 supports
standards for HTML5, CSS3, SVG 1.1, ECMAScript5, and DOM L2 & L3.
Spend less time writing and rewriting code and more time creating great
experiences on the web. Be a part of the beta today
http://p.sf.net/sfu/msIE9-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/l
Igor Chudov
2010-11-18 19:10:55 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:50 PM, <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> At one shop I worked at we found if we left a coolant pump on all the time the coolant stayed fresh longer on the drill presses. Probably cause the pump airiated the coolant
> Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network

I found out that even running the pump every so often, helps a lot.
Some people put in a fish tank aerator pump with an air stone on a
timer, I want to do the same.

i
dave
2010-11-19 00:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Yep! Keep it oxidizing and it won't smell as bad. Let it go anaerobic
and the bacteria that thrive w/o oxygen thrive and produce nasty
smelling volatile fatty acids. C2 thru C6. guaranteed to turn your
stomach.

Dave


On Thu, 2010-11-18 at 18:50 +0000, ***@hotmail.com wrote:
> At one shop I worked at we found if we left a coolant pump on all the time the coolant stayed fresh longer on the drill presses. Probably cause the pump airiated the coolant
> Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stuart Stevenson <***@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 12:12:49
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)<emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\)"
> <emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Big Iron
>
> On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Igor Chudov <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Stuart Stevenson <***@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > The coolant reservoir is the entire pit the machine sits in. The oil is
> > > very effective in reducing coolant water loss to evaporation.
> >
> > Stuart, does the coolant become rancid due to being covered with oil?
> > Do you have to manage that?
> >
> a constant problem - we skim it to collect what we can - we watch the PH and
> concentration
>
> >
> >
Karl Schmidt
2010-11-18 18:11:50 UTC
Permalink
On 11/18/2010 12:04 PM, Igor Chudov wrote:

>
> Stuart, does the coolant become rancid due to being covered with oil?
> Do you have to manage that?
>

There is a trick to prevent this (most often a problem on machines that aren't used everyday) - I
put a bit of lysol in the mix - no more bacterial growth..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl Schmidt EMail ***@xtronics.com
Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com
3209 West 9th Street Ph (785) 841-3089
Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX (785) 841-0434

We can't tax and sue each other into prosperity. -kps

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Igor Chudov
2010-11-18 19:07:23 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Karl Schmidt <***@xtronics.com> wrote:
>> Stuart, does the coolant become rancid due to being covered with oil?
>> Do you have to manage that?
>
> There is a trick to prevent this (most often a problem on machines that aren't used everyday) - I
> put a bit of lysol in the mix - no more bacterial growth..
>

Karl, what sort of Lysol did you use, there are so many Lysol products.

Thanks a lot!
Karl Schmidt
2010-11-18 21:36:00 UTC
Permalink
On 11/18/2010 01:07 PM, Igor Chudov wrote:

>
> Karl, what sort of Lysol did you use, there are so many Lysol products.

http://www.amazon.com/Lysol-Brand-Concentrate-Original-Scent/dp/B0012ZAOGC

Lysol is based on breaking the cell walls of any growth. It doesn't take much - say 1/4 as much as
for mop water..

The problem is that a lot of these coolants are based on lanolin - basically animal fat - and that
presents itself as an excellent growth media for anaerobic bacteria. You might notice that the
stench is similar to a grease barrel that has been sitting to long. (I also had it plug up mist
heads with bacterial slim ).

Running the pump aerates the coolant so anaerobic beasts can't grow, but there are other beasts
(that don't smell ) that can grow and pose at least a theoretical risk. Some brands of coolent have
some antibacterial stuff already added, but this stuff is not blended to last long term for the
weekend machinist where it might sit for a few months - dare I say years?.

One other issue - it is possible to grow things that are bad for us - molds can trigger allergies,
but there are putrefying anaerobic bacteria that can get in a nick or cut on one's hand and do bad
things. I think less harmful bacteria/molds are the common problem, but your coolant can act as a
petri-dish and grow most anything if the PH is right (so it won't irritate your skin) and there is a
supply of food ( lanolin ). Now that mist cooling is common, we even end up breathing a bit of this
stuff.

Legionnaires has been spread by air-conditioning coils where the drain was plugged and it formed a mist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionnaire_disease
Igor Chudov
2010-11-18 22:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Karl, awesome summary. I would love to know how much Lyson you use per
gallon of coolant.

Igor

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Karl Schmidt <***@xtronics.com> wrote:
> On 11/18/2010 01:07 PM, Igor Chudov wrote:
>
>>
>> Karl, what sort of Lysol did you use, there are so many Lysol products.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Lysol-Brand-Concentrate-Original-Scent/dp/B0012ZAOGC
>
> Lysol is based on breaking the cell walls of any growth. It doesn't take much - say 1/4 as much as
> for mop water..
>
> The problem is that a lot of these coolants are based on lanolin - basically animal fat - and that
> presents itself as an excellent growth media for anaerobic bacteria. You might notice that the
> stench is similar to a grease barrel that has been sitting to long. (I also had it plug up mist
> heads with bacterial slim ).
>
> Running the pump aerates the coolant so anaerobic beasts can't grow, but there are other beasts
> (that don't smell ) that can grow and pose at least a theoretical risk. Some brands of coolent have
> some antibacterial stuff already added, but this stuff is not blended to last long term for the
> weekend machinist where it might sit for a few months - dare I say years?.
>
> One other issue - it is possible to grow things that are bad for us - molds can trigger allergies,
> but there are putrefying anaerobic bacteria that can get in a nick or cut on one's hand and do bad
> things.  I think less harmful bacteria/molds are the common problem, but your coolant can act as a
> petri-dish and grow most anything if the PH is right (so it won't irritate your skin) and there is a
> supply of food ( lanolin ). Now that mist cooling is common, we even end up breathing a bit of this
> stuff.
>
> Legionnaires has been spread by air-conditioning coils where the drain was plugged and it formed a mist.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionnaire_disease
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Beautiful is writing same markup. Internet Explorer 9 supports
> standards for HTML5, CSS3, SVG 1.1,  ECMAScript5, and DOM L2 & L3.
> Spend less time writing and  rewriting code and more time creating great
> experiences on the web. Be a part of the beta today
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/msIE9-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
Karl Schmidt
2010-11-18 23:28:24 UTC
Permalink
On 11/18/2010 04:21 PM, Igor Chudov wrote:
> Karl, awesome summary. I would love to know how much Lyson you use per
> gallon of coolant.

Something like a tablespoon
dave
2010-11-19 01:09:51 UTC
Permalink
The stuff we used on the lab benches in Micro something like 50 years
ago was a mixture of cresol's. Think creosote smell ( classic railroad
ties and pilings ) and toxicity. It soaked into the stone lab tops and
permeated our lab jackets but nothing grew in its presence.

In the military we had unlimited quantities of 190 proof to swab
benches.

Most of the antibacterials today are quats ... quaternary ammonium
compounds.

Dave
Jon Elson
2010-11-19 02:30:54 UTC
Permalink
Igor Chudov wrote:
> Karl, what sort of Lysol did you use, there are so many Lysol products.
>
I got this Encool concentrate from Engineered Lubricants (no connection
other than a VERY satisfied user) and it can sit for months without any
growth. I do get some sort of slimy film that eventually forms in the
sump, but it NEVER smells at all. I had all sorts of problems with
tricool growing stuff in short order, with bad smells.

Jon
Igor Chudov
2010-11-19 02:35:12 UTC
Permalink
Nice to know. My Hangsterfer S500 also seems to not develop any smells.

i

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Jon Elson <***@pico-systems.com> wrote:
> Igor Chudov wrote:
>> Karl, what sort of Lysol did you use, there are so many Lysol products.
>>
> I got this Encool concentrate from Engineered Lubricants (no connection
> other than a VERY satisfied user) and it can sit for months without any
> growth.  I do get some sort of slimy film that eventually forms in the
> sump, but it NEVER smells at all.  I had all sorts of problems with
> tricool growing stuff in short order, with bad smells.
>
> Jon
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Beautiful is writing same markup. Internet Explorer 9 supports
> standards for HTML5, CSS3, SVG 1.1,  ECMAScript5, and DOM L2 & L3.
> Spend less time writing and  rewriting code and more time creating great
> experiences on the web. Be a part of the beta today
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/msIE9-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
Kirk Wallace
2010-11-19 03:24:49 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 2010-11-18 at 20:35 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
> Nice to know. My Hangsterfer S500 also seems to not develop any smells.
>
> i

My HNC lathe has only had oil based fluid (Mobil 504?) and has no signs
of corrosion. My Shizuoka mill had a water based fluid and was a nasty
rusty smelly yucky mess when I got it. I plan on using an oil based
fluid for the mill to. Right now, I use a mister or brush, so there is
no fluid "in" the mill. I think it might be a mistake to have any water
around an older machine that wasn't designed with water based fluids in
mind.

(To see the HNC fluid fly)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxw7HaD_kxk

--
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA
Roland Jollivet
2010-11-19 08:26:20 UTC
Permalink
While this thread is on the topic of coolants, I'd like to know from users
of bigger CNC machines if corrosion is a problem.

While I understand that the modern coolant solutions have a fairly good bond
to the water, there are a myriad of pockets in a machine where water can
evaporate, then condense on an upper surface, This is obviously now pure
water, and soon causes rusting. So one might have a vice arrangement running
for a week on a repeat job, with flood cooling, and when you dismantle it
all, there is rust on underside parts of the vice.

So, is this still a problem on modern machines, and how is it overcome?

Regards
Roland



On 19 November 2010 05:24, Kirk Wallace <***@wallacecompany.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 2010-11-18 at 20:35 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
> > Nice to know. My Hangsterfer S500 also seems to not develop any smells.
> >
> > i
>
> My HNC lathe has only had oil based fluid (Mobil 504?) and has no signs
> of corrosion. My Shizuoka mill had a water based fluid and was a nasty
> rusty smelly yucky mess when I got it. I plan on using an oil based
> fluid for the mill to. Right now, I use a mister or brush, so there is
> no fluid "in" the mill. I think it might be a mistake to have any water
> around an older machine that wasn't designed with water based fluids in
> mind.
>
> (To see the HNC fluid fly)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxw7HaD_kxk
>
> --
> Kirk Wallace
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
> California, USA
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Beautiful is writing same markup. Internet Explorer 9 supports
> standards for HTML5, CSS3, SVG 1.1, ECMAScript5, and DOM L2 & L3.
> Spend less time writing and rewriting code and more time creating great
> experiences on the web. Be a part of the beta today
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/msIE9-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
Jon Elson
2010-11-20 03:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Roland Jollivet wrote:
> While this thread is on the topic of coolants, I'd like to know from users
> of bigger CNC machines if corrosion is a problem.
>
> While I understand that the modern coolant solutions have a fairly good bond
> to the water, there are a myriad of pockets in a machine where water can
> evaporate, then condense on an upper surface, This is obviously now pure
> water, and soon causes rusting. So one might have a vice arrangement running
> for a week on a repeat job, with flood cooling, and when you dismantle it
> all, there is rust on underside parts of the vice.
>
I often leave the vise on my mill for months at a time. I occasionally
get a black film under the vise or machine table, but it wipes off with
a paper towel. I'm sure this is due to the performance of the Encool
solution, and how the corrosion inhibitors wick and film over the metal
to protect it.

Jon
Andy Pugh
2010-11-19 09:13:22 UTC
Permalink
On 19 November 2010 03:24, Kirk Wallace <***@wallacecompany.com> wrote:

> I think it might be a mistake to have any water
> around an older machine that wasn't designed with water based fluids in
> mind.

In the 19th centrury they used plain water, then moved on to soda
water to reduce corrosion. (according to Wikipedia).
The neat oil coolants are actually the "new kids on the block".

However, that stuff on the HNC does look "machine friendly"

I am trying to decide what to use on my Mill, part of the problem is
that the coolants are all so very expensive, and mainly come in £500
drums.

--
atp
Andy Pugh
2010-11-19 09:17:05 UTC
Permalink
On 19 November 2010 03:24, Kirk Wallace <***@wallacecompany.com> wrote:

> My HNC lathe has only had oil based fluid (Mobil 504?)

Looks like you probably mean 404. However when I click on that link on
the Mobil website I get "Page ot found". Which I find very amusing.

--
atp
Kirk Wallace
2010-11-19 16:28:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 09:17 +0000, Andy Pugh wrote:
> On 19 November 2010 03:24, Kirk Wallace <***@wallacecompany.com> wrote:
>
> > My HNC lathe has only had oil based fluid (Mobil 504?)
>
> Looks like you probably mean 404. However when I click on that link on
> the Mobil website I get "Page ot found". Which I find very amusing.
>

I tried to find it too, and came up empty. My oil is 504 (I memorized it
by visualizing a Peugeot 504 Turbo) , but it looks like it isn't made
any more and my supplier went out of business. I need to get more, so
I'll need to start over to find a replacement. The oil I have in the
machine came with it, so it is probably ten years old or more. It seems
to stick around pretty well, but is lost from coating the parts, chips
and filling brush cans. That is another issue with machining fluid,
getting it off the parts.

I found this on 404:
http://mooreballiewoil.thomasnet.com/viewitems/oil-based-cutting-oils/mobilmet-402-404-and-416
(Short URL) http://alturl.com/kgdsk

http://mooreballiewoil.thomasnet.com/category/oil-based-cutting-oils?

This looks promising, but it is expensive enough to warrant more
research.
--
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA
Andy Pugh
2010-11-19 17:50:22 UTC
Permalink
On 19 November 2010 16:28, Kirk Wallace <***@wallacecompany.com> wrote:

> This looks promising, but it is expensive enough to warrant more
> research.

There is a 5-gallon size.

I am tempted by the simple solution it offers to tramp-oil problems,
use it in the spindles and gearboxes too...

--
atp
Karl Schmidt
2010-11-19 06:29:58 UTC
Permalink
On 11/18/2010 08:30 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Igor Chudov wrote:
>I do get some sort of slimy film that eventually forms in the
> sump, but it NEVER smells at all.

Might be interesting to look at that slim-film under a microscope.

> Dave wrote:

> Most of the antibacterials today are quats ... quaternary ammonium
> compounds.

Any idea how quats compare to Lysol? Are they volatile and disappear over time?

I had a bucket of spray coolant I mixed up that I used every 6 months or so - would turn into a
nasty mess - just a bit of Lysol and even a few years later it was fine.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl Schmidt EMail ***@xtronics.com
Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com
3209 West 9th Street Ph (785) 841-3089
Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX (785) 841-0434

Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it.
-Milton Friedman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave
2010-11-19 14:17:38 UTC
Permalink
FWIW, I have a horizontal bandsaw that I keep in an unheated area for
cutoff work.

It has a coolant system and I struggled with what to use for a coolant
that would not freeze and destroy the submersible pump.

I ended up trying and using RV antifreeze. It isn't cheap on a per
gallon basis (about $2.50 per gallon on sale) compared to a
water/soluble oil mix so I would not want to use it in a large sump, but
for misting
or a smaller sump (a few gallons) like my saw, it seems to work fine.
RV antifreeze can be drank in smaller quantities so I would think that
would be good healthwise for misting, and
it certainly doesn't freeze :-). It also contains some
anti-corrosives. Most of the coolant is recovered on this saw so I
only put a few gallons per year into the sump. The stuff never goes rancid.

For large machines with big sumps I think the it is a real struggle to
keep coolant especially if the machine is not run a lot.

Dave

On 11/19/2010 1:29 AM, Karl Schmidt wrote:
> On 11/18/2010 08:30 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> Igor Chudov wrote:
>> I do get some sort of slimy film that eventually forms in the
>> sump, but it NEVER smells at all.
>>
> Might be interesting to look at that slim-film under a microscope.
>
> > Dave wrote:
>
>
>> Most of the antibacterials today are quats ... quaternary ammonium
>> compounds.
>>
> Any idea how quats compare to Lysol? Are they volatile and disappear over time?
>
> I had a bucket of spray coolant I mixed up that I used every 6 months or so - would turn into a
> nasty mess - just a bit of Lysol and even a few years later it was fine.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Karl Schmidt EMail ***@xtronics.com
> Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com
> 3209 West 9th Street Ph (785) 841-3089
> Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX (785) 841-0434
>
> Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it.
> -Milton Friedman
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Beautiful is writing same markup. Internet Explorer 9 supports
> standards for HTML5, CSS3, SVG 1.1, ECMAScript5, and DOM L2& L3.
> Spend less time writing and rewriting code and more time creating great
> experiences on the web. Be a part of the beta today
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/msIE9-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
Andy Pugh
2010-11-19 14:53:31 UTC
Permalink
On 19 November 2010 14:17, Dave <***@dc9.tzo.com> wrote:

> RV antifreeze can be drank in smaller quantities

Have you considered filling the sump with Austrian wine?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal

--
atp
Stuart Stevenson
2010-11-19 15:56:30 UTC
Permalink
Gentlemen,
With a number of machines running all the time we don't see evaporated
water condensing anywhere. The evaporated water seems to carry some of the
soluble oil with it. We see a thick film of a gooey dusty mess on everything
in the shop. When you try to dissolve the goo with solvent to clean a part
it will smear around and look worse. Put the part under running water and
the goo disappears in a hurry. You can see what looks like clean coolant
running off the part. We see no rust under the goo.
Last Monday was the first production day for the Fest attendees to be in
the shop. Late in the day Chris Radek asked me if we were using a misting
system anywhere in the shop. He has noticed a haze develop in the air during
the day. This is from the evaporated coolant carrying the oil with it. I
didn't notice it and he did not say anything about smelling it.
I know it smells because my wife can tell if I have been in the shop or
not by how I smell when I get home. It doesn't seem to repel to her but she
notices (at least I don't think it is a repellent). HEH
thanks
Stuart

--
dos centavos
Kent A. Reed
2010-11-19 15:34:22 UTC
Permalink
On 11/19/2010 9:17 AM, Dave wrote:
> FWIW, I have a horizontal bandsaw that I keep in an unheated area for
> cutoff work.
>
> It has a coolant system and I struggled with what to use for a coolant
> that would not freeze and destroy the submersible pump.
>
> I ended up trying and using RV antifreeze. It isn't cheap on a per
> gallon basis (about $2.50 per gallon on sale) compared to a
> water/soluble oil mix so I would not want to use it in a large sump, but
> for misting
> or a smaller sump (a few gallons) like my saw, it seems to work fine.
> RV antifreeze can be drank in smaller quantities so I would think that
> would be good healthwise for misting, and

Errm. It may be true that this stuff can be breathed as well as
swallowed but your logic does not compute.

There are lots of things your throat and stomach can handle that are bad
for your lungs, especially when they are in aerosol form.

Always check for relevant Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS). They may
not tell you that something is ok in aerosol form but they probably will
tell you if it is known to be bad.

Regards,
Kent
Dave
2010-11-19 17:50:31 UTC
Permalink
OK.... since you asked.. :-)

http://www.peakantifreeze.com/pdf/msds-peak_rv_marine.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol

The good thing is that there is a lot to read ... the bad is that the
results say everything from the vapors are good to breath (seriously) to
not so good to breath and can cause irritation.

Propylene Glycol has been used for fog generation in stage productions
and it is also used in Cigar Humidors.. (go figure..) along with a
bunch of other things.

Generally, none of this stuff is good to inhale. Lungs are designed to
inhale air, not oil mist or antifreeze mist, etc.

If you are inhaling the mist of any of these coolants, it is not a good
thing.

Still, this stuff might be better than the alternatives.

Pick your poison..

Dave

On 11/19/2010 10:34 AM, Kent A. Reed wrote:
> On 11/19/2010 9:17 AM, Dave wrote:
>
>> FWIW, I have a horizontal bandsaw that I keep in an unheated area for
>> cutoff work.
>>
>> It has a coolant system and I struggled with what to use for a coolant
>> that would not freeze and destroy the submersible pump.
>>
>> I ended up trying and using RV antifreeze. It isn't cheap on a per
>> gallon basis (about $2.50 per gallon on sale) compared to a
>> water/soluble oil mix so I would not want to use it in a large sump, but
>> for misting
>> or a smaller sump (a few gallons) like my saw, it seems to work fine.
>> RV antifreeze can be drank in smaller quantities so I would think that
>> would be good healthwise for misting, and
>>
> Errm. It may be true that this stuff can be breathed as well as
> swallowed but your logic does not compute.
>
> There are lots of things your throat and stomach can handle that are bad
> for your lungs, especially when they are in aerosol form.
>
> Always check for relevant Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS). They may
> not tell you that something is ok in aerosol form but they probably will
> tell you if it is known to be bad.
>
> Regards,
> Kent
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Beautiful is writing same markup. Internet Explorer 9 supports
> standards for HTML5, CSS3, SVG 1.1, ECMAScript5, and DOM L2& L3.
> Spend less time writing and rewriting code and more time creating great
> experiences on the web. Be a part of the beta today
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/msIE9-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
Karl Schmidt
2010-11-19 19:37:23 UTC
Permalink
About using MSDS as a reality test.. and evaluating magnitude of risk


I mentioned earlier about some potential risks that I don't know the 'magnitude' of. MSDS sheets
have to be taken as a grain of salt. I've read the MSDS sheet for laboratory sucrose - you would
think it was dangerous, eye irritant, respiratory protections etc.. Getting good information about
the MAGNITUDE of risks is hard - and MSDS don't seem very helpful.

The problem is that the Lawyers got involved - every possible conceived risk that could be
consturued or misconstrued is listed so if they get sued they can say, "We warned them."

Safety warnings used to be helpful - now they are so exaggerated that the real safety issues are
buried in pages of stupid stuff, to the point that people don't even read the warnings anymore.

I remember working 2nd shift in a hydraulic valve plant when I was in high school - hands in solvent
all shift long - I realized that I could taste the solvent as it soaked into my skin - and insisted
on using some gloves. Today, that job would require a hood, solvent proof smock, respirator, and in
the end the job goes overseas where such details are less important than the opportunity to earn
enough to stay fed. There has to be a balance.

There is a risk to everything - (I think about the conversation I had with someone complaining about
chemicals in their food - I pointed out that water is a chemical - the stuttering indignation and
illogical thought processes it evoked is sadly typical. ) Chlorine in drinking water is a proven
carcinogen, yet I want it in my water. (Some idiot talked some people into a "safer" UV system and
ended up killing a bunch of people - I think in South America)

I think one of the worst examples of chemophobia has to do with lead. We know that the lead oxide
that was used in paint is readily absorbed and toxic if ingested. Someone noticed that there was
lead leaching from land fills and they banned lead from solder in the EU.

First, the lead coming out of land fills was from a different safety mandate - they put lead in CRT
glass as an xray shield.

Next, where does lead come from? Lead ore in the ground is often in the oxide from which is smelted
down to lead - (becomes safer (harder to absorb)). Then the lead is combined with tin (becomes safer
yet). Then it gets buried again.

The use of non-lead solders in electronics has cost the industry billions of dollars and the
electronics are now not as reliable. Safety systems are exempted, but because of availability,
unleaded parts have ended up in everything. But even a cell phone failing during an emergency can
result in death. The no-lead ban - instead of 'saving lives' - is costing lives. I wish the
bureaucrats would listen to the engineers once in a while.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl Schmidt EMail ***@xtronics.com
Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com
3209 West 9th Street Ph (785) 841-3089
Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX (785) 841-0434

The lack of a middle class is a good indicator of how corrupt a government is.
kps

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kasunich
2010-11-19 20:13:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 13:37 -0600, "Karl Schmidt" <***@xtronics.com>
wrote:
> I wish the
> bureaucrats would listen to the engineers once in a while.

Keep dreaming....

John Kasunich
--
John Kasunich
***@fastmail.fm
Dave
2010-11-19 18:03:24 UTC
Permalink
OK.... since you asked.. :-)

http://www.peakantifreeze.com/pdf/msds-peak_rv_marine.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol

The good thing is that there is a lot to read ... the bad is that the
results say everything from the vapors are good to breath (seriously) to
not so good to breath and can cause irritation.

Propylene Glycol has been used for fog generation in stage productions
and it is also used in Cigar Humidors.. along with a bunch of other
things.

Generally, none of this stuff is good to inhale. Lungs are designed to
inhale air, not oil mist or antifreeze mist, etc.

If you are inhaling the mist of any of these coolants, it is not a good
thing. Install some ventilation.

Still, this stuff might be better than the alternatives.

Pick your poison..
Steve Blackmore
2010-11-20 02:48:00 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:30:54 -0600, you wrote:

>Igor Chudov wrote:
>> Karl, what sort of Lysol did you use, there are so many Lysol products.
>>
>I got this Encool concentrate from Engineered Lubricants (no connection
>other than a VERY satisfied user) and it can sit for months without any
>growth. I do get some sort of slimy film that eventually forms in the
>sump, but it NEVER smells at all. I had all sorts of problems with
>tricool growing stuff in short order, with bad smells.

A lot of the companies I deal with have moved over to synthetic or semi
synthetic fluids. It's more expensive to buy, but average dilution rates
are in the region of 50:1.

I've been using Rocol Ultracut for a few years, no mould growth, nasty
smells or rust formation on machine or parts. Doesn't give me a rash and
the wife doesn't complain about the smell :) The lathe sump hasn't been
drained for two years. It gets the tramp oil removed when I remember and
gets topped up when the pump pulls air. Often it only gets water, as
that seems to evaporate off and the concentration goes higher over time.
The only fresh lube addition is to replace spillage and loss in with
swarf.

Steve Blackmore
--
Kirk Wallace
2010-11-18 02:51:40 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 2010-11-17 at 12:56 -0800, dave wrote:
> Just checked with Tolt Manufacturing, Inc.
>
> http://toltmachineworks.com/aboutus.aspx

> Open house which was (apparently) scheduled for tomorrow has been moved
> to Jan 13, 10:00 to 5:00.
> Hope to see all the locals (?) there.
>
> Dave

Thanks for pursuing this Dave. It doesn't look like much has changed on
the Tolt website. I'm looking forward to any information you can share.
--
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Very much enjoyed.

Will Baden

> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 13:15:18 +0000
> From: ***@gmail.com
> To: emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Big Iron
>
> enjoy
> http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
>
> Dave Caroline (archivist)
>
> On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Igor Chudov <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Which brings up a question.
> >
> > How did they make propellers for big ships in the old times without 3D CNC?
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Beautiful is writing same markup. Internet Explorer 9 supports
> > standards for HTML5, CSS3, SVG 1.1, ECMAScript5, and DOM L2 & L3.
> > Spend less time writing and rewriting code and more time creating great
> > experiences on the web. Be a part of the beta today
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/msIE9-sfdev2dev
> > _______________________________________________
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Beautiful is writing same markup. Internet Explorer 9 supports
> standards for HTML5, CSS3, SVG 1.1, ECMAScript5, and DOM L2 & L3.
> Spend less time writing and rewriting code and more time creating great
> experiences on the web. Be a part of the beta today
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/msIE9-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Colin Kingsbury
2010-11-19 20:05:16 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:50:31 -0500
> From: Dave <***@DC9.TZO.com>
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: breathing coolants
>


> Propylene Glycol has been used for fog generation in stage productions
> and it is also used in Cigar Humidors.. (go figure..)
>

Good cigars like to be kept at 70% humidity, otherwise they swell and split,
burn poorly, and get moldy. A block of florist's foam soaked with a 50/50
mix of water and PG in a sealed container will equilibrate to right around
70% with no fuss or machinery needed.
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