Discussion:
App fails to start -- locks up pc
(too old to reply)
Joe Korkin
2006-03-06 08:29:39 UTC
Permalink
I recently installed emc/rtai using the BDI 4.38 iso on a clean system --
nothing on the drive.

Executing generic.run results in the pc locking up.
The last message in the xterm indicates that freqmod loaded ok and EMCIO is
starting...

.Xsession log reveals the following;

shmem.cc 509: SHMEM: Can't take semaphore

I see there are SHMEM entries in the .nml file but they are not documented
anywhere. Do these need adjusting?

I thought that I could possibly save myself some pain by posting to the
group before crawling through source for the answer.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.
Joe

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Gene Heskett
2006-03-06 08:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Korkin
I recently installed emc/rtai using the BDI 4.38 iso on a clean system
-- nothing on the drive.
Executing generic.run results in the pc locking up.
The last message in the xterm indicates that freqmod loaded ok and
EMCIO is starting...
.Xsession log reveals the following;
shmem.cc 509: SHMEM: Can't take semaphore
I see there are SHMEM entries in the .nml file but they are not
documented anywhere. Do these need adjusting?
I thought that I could possibly save myself some pain by posting to
the group before crawling through source for the answer.
Thanks in advance for any guidance.
Joe
What sort of a machine is it? The minimum is considered to be a 400mhz
& 256MB of memory IIRC. The rtai runs as a seperate process, and its
default cycle time in an unmodified .ini file is 50 microseconds. You
might want to change that in the .ini file to 100 u-s just to test if
that is it. Its stated in seconds, so that would change the .000050
to .000100. But if that makes it run, then it would be a good indicator
to find a bit quicker a box to run emc on.
Post by Joe Korkin
Emc-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
--
Cheers, Gene
People having trouble with vz bouncing email to me should add the word
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stupid bounce rules. I do use spamassassin too. :-)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
Joe Korkin
2006-03-07 05:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Gene,

Thanks for tip Gene. I didn't find the 50us entry. However a closer re-read
of the Integrator Handbook in conjunction with your suggestion led to a
modification of the freqmod base PERIOD from 20us to 64us and resulted in a
successful startup.

So you are correct in pointing out that my 300Mhz/128Mb machine is
inadequate. I just hate to put a new pc in a "dirty" plasma cutting env.

Incidentally, I based my machine choice on the obviously outdated Integrator
Handbook... excerpted below.


"A.14 What is the minimum specifcation of the
computer required?

An old P133 with 16-32Mb RAM, a 500Mb IDE hard drive, and a CDROM
drive that can be booted from. If you want good performance from stepper
motors, a Pentium 233 or better is recommended."


Thanks again for the assistance Gene.
Joe
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] App fails to start -- locks up pc
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 03:41:06 -0500
Post by Joe Korkin
I recently installed emc/rtai using the BDI 4.38 iso on a clean system
-- nothing on the drive.
Executing generic.run results in the pc locking up.
The last message in the xterm indicates that freqmod loaded ok and
EMCIO is starting...
.Xsession log reveals the following;
shmem.cc 509: SHMEM: Can't take semaphore
I see there are SHMEM entries in the .nml file but they are not
documented anywhere. Do these need adjusting?
I thought that I could possibly save myself some pain by posting to
the group before crawling through source for the answer.
Thanks in advance for any guidance.
Joe
What sort of a machine is it? The minimum is considered to be a 400mhz
& 256MB of memory IIRC. The rtai runs as a seperate process, and its
default cycle time in an unmodified .ini file is 50 microseconds. You
might want to change that in the .ini file to 100 u-s just to test if
that is it. Its stated in seconds, so that would change the .000050
to .000100. But if that makes it run, then it would be a good indicator
to find a bit quicker a box to run emc on.
Post by Joe Korkin
Emc-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
--
Cheers, Gene
People having trouble with vz bouncing email to me should add the word
'online' between the 'verizon', and the dot which bypasses vz's
stupid bounce rules. I do use spamassassin too. :-)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
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Gene Heskett
2006-03-07 06:59:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Korkin
Gene,
Thanks for tip Gene. I didn't find the 50us entry. However a closer
re-read of the Integrator Handbook in conjunction with your
suggestion led to a modification of the freqmod base PERIOD from 20us
to 64us and resulted in a successful startup.
I'm running steppers myself, currently at 25u-s, but I've got a bit more
iron to throw at it, half a gig of ram & a 1400mhz athlon in an old
small tower I rebuilt.

You may also have an older version of emc, it wasn't too long ago that a
bug in the realtime was found, which allowed the speed of the
BASE_PERIOD to be approximately doubled. Mine is snappier now at
20-u-s than it was before at 50u-s. I'm also running todays cvs head
of emc2, and the new trajectory planner is downright sweet.
Post by Joe Korkin
So you are correct in pointing out that my 300Mhz/128Mb machine is
inadequate. I just hate to put a new pc in a "dirty" plasma cutting env.
Incidentally, I based my machine choice on the obviously outdated
Integrator Handbook... excerpted below.
"A.14 What is the minimum specifcation of the
computer required?
An old P133 with 16-32Mb RAM, a 500Mb IDE hard drive, and a CDROM
drive that can be booted from. If you want good performance from
stepper motors, a Pentium 233 or better is recommended."
Thanks again for the assistance Gene.
Joe
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] App fails to start -- locks up pc
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 03:41:06 -0500
Post by Joe Korkin
I recently installed emc/rtai using the BDI 4.38 iso on a clean
system -- nothing on the drive.
Executing generic.run results in the pc locking up.
The last message in the xterm indicates that freqmod loaded ok and
EMCIO is starting...
.Xsession log reveals the following;
shmem.cc 509: SHMEM: Can't take semaphore
I see there are SHMEM entries in the .nml file but they are not
documented anywhere. Do these need adjusting?
I thought that I could possibly save myself some pain by posting to
the group before crawling through source for the answer.
Thanks in advance for any guidance.
Joe
What sort of a machine is it? The minimum is considered to be a
400mhz & 256MB of memory IIRC. The rtai runs as a seperate process,
and its default cycle time in an unmodified .ini file is 50
microseconds. You might want to change that in the .ini file to 100
u-s just to test if that is it. Its stated in seconds, so that
would change the .000050 to .000100. But if that makes it run, then
it would be a good indicator to find a bit quicker a box to run emc
on.
Post by Joe Korkin
Emc-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
--
Cheers, Gene
People having trouble with vz bouncing email to me should add the
word 'online' between the 'verizon', and the dot which bypasses vz's
stupid bounce rules. I do use spamassassin too. :-)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
-------------------------------------------------------
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1642 _______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
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642 _______________________________________________
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--
Cheers, Gene
People having trouble with vz bouncing email to me should add the word
'online' between the 'verizon', and the dot which bypasses vz's
stupid bounce rules. I do use spamassassin too. :-)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
Alex Joni
2006-03-07 07:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Heskett
I'm running steppers myself, currently at 25u-s, but I've got a bit more
iron to throw at it, half a gig of ram & a 1400mhz athlon in an old
small tower I rebuilt.
You may also have an older version of emc, it wasn't too long ago that a
bug in the realtime was found, which allowed the speed of the
BASE_PERIOD to be approximately doubled. Mine is snappier now at
20-u-s than it was before at 50u-s. I'm also running todays cvs head
of emc2, and the new trajectory planner is downright sweet.
yes, but you are talking about emc2 here, the initial post was about
emc1-bdi
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Joe Korkin
An old P133 with 16-32Mb RAM, a 500Mb IDE hard drive, and a CDROM
drive that can be booted from. If you want good performance from
stepper motors, a Pentium 233 or better is recommended."
this is not that farfetched today either.. although you'll have a bit of a
problem running X on that,
so if you're ok with text mode.. it might be something.

Regards,
Alex
William Scalione
2006-03-08 15:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Is the limiting factor on processor speed simply that the linux versions
(window managers) are becoming more and more resource hungry or has EMC2
changed to require a faster processor. If the former, then
the EMC2 Puppy distro should work ok for those with slower computers
shouldn't it? I'm still running BDI 2.20 on my P-350 and since it works
well I have not seen any reason to change, but I am waiting for the
new Puppy version (CoolCNC) to try out all of the new bells and whistles
in EMC2. I tried an older puppy EMC and it seemed to work
ok, but will wait for the newer version before I spend a lot of time
playing with it. I was going to try to build a testing version on it,
but it was originally compiled with gcc 2.95, and the guide I was
reading said that it would not compile

Bill
Post by Alex Joni
Post by Joe Korkin
An old P133 with 16-32Mb RAM, a 500Mb IDE hard drive, and a CDROM
drive that can be booted from. If you want good performance from
stepper motors, a Pentium 233 or better is recommended."
this is not that farfetched today either.. although you'll have a bit
of a problem running X on that,
so if you're ok with text mode.. it might be something.
Regards,
Alex
Sven-Åke Larsson
2006-03-08 15:33:27 UTC
Permalink
GUI:s always consume a lot of resources.
I haven't tested it with EMC, but when it comes to non graphical performance I always setup a lightweight window manager. One that works really well is http://www.fluxbox.org/ that is both KDE and Gnome compatible and is extremely fast.

Regards,
Sven

________________________________

From: emc-users-***@lists.sourceforge.net on behalf of William Scalione
Sent: Wed 2006-03-08 16:10
To: emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] App fails to start -- locks up pc



Is the limiting factor on processor speed simply that the linux versions
(window managers) are becoming more and more resource hungry or has EMC2
changed to require a faster processor. If the former, then
the EMC2 Puppy distro should work ok for those with slower computers
shouldn't it? I'm still running BDI 2.20 on my P-350 and since it works
well I have not seen any reason to change, but I am waiting for the
new Puppy version (CoolCNC) to try out all of the new bells and whistles
in EMC2. I tried an older puppy EMC and it seemed to work
ok, but will wait for the newer version before I spend a lot of time
playing with it. I was going to try to build a testing version on it,
but it was originally compiled with gcc 2.95, and the guide I was
reading said that it would not compile

Bill
Post by Alex Joni
Post by Joe Korkin
An old P133 with 16-32Mb RAM, a 500Mb IDE hard drive, and a CDROM
drive that can be booted from. If you want good performance from
stepper motors, a Pentium 233 or better is recommended."
this is not that farfetched today either.. although you'll have a bit
of a problem running X on that,
so if you're ok with text mode.. it might be something.
Regards,
Alex
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cncuser
2006-03-08 15:42:18 UTC
Permalink
hi bill,

a new testingrellease isout in the wild.
you can downlaod it here: http://cooltool.he.fdread.org/cncforum/coolcnc/coolcncb04.iso

its a little bigger, but has axis and python onboard. still runs in 128mb of RAM.

have fun
cncuser

On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:10:46 -0500
Post by William Scalione
Is the limiting factor on processor speed simply that the linux versions
(window managers) are becoming more and more resource hungry or has EMC2
changed to require a faster processor. If the former, then
the EMC2 Puppy distro should work ok for those with slower computers
shouldn't it? I'm still running BDI 2.20 on my P-350 and since it works
well I have not seen any reason to change, but I am waiting for the
new Puppy version (CoolCNC) to try out all of the new bells and whistles
in EMC2. I tried an older puppy EMC and it seemed to work
ok, but will wait for the newer version before I spend a lot of time
playing with it. I was going to try to build a testing version on it,
but it was originally compiled with gcc 2.95, and the guide I was
reading said that it would not compile
Bill
Post by Alex Joni
Post by Joe Korkin
An old P133 with 16-32Mb RAM, a 500Mb IDE hard drive, and a CDROM
drive that can be booted from. If you want good performance from
stepper motors, a Pentium 233 or better is recommended."
this is not that farfetched today either.. although you'll have a bit
of a problem running X on that,
so if you're ok with text mode.. it might be something.
Regards,
Alex
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and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory!
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Stephen Wille Padnos
2006-03-08 16:05:46 UTC
Permalink
I think there are three factors to the speed question.

First, the GUI (KDE, Gnome, XFCE, etc) doesn't have much of an effect on
the step pulse rate. It matters a little, since the GUI gets starved
for CPU cycles, and the computer will seem unresponsive sooner with a
resource hog GUI.

Second, faster processors aren't necessarily better for RT task
switching. When you add registers, pipeline stages, multiple levels of
cache, etc., you increase the task switch time. It seems that older
processors like some P3 chips, plus older chipsets are better for
interrupt response than the latest and greatest.

Third, is the software. EMC2 does need more CPU horsepower than
EMC(1). This is due to the reconfigurable nature of HAL. The price of
reconfigurability is a small performance hit.

I'd try it out, and see how fast you can get :)

- Steve
Post by William Scalione
Is the limiting factor on processor speed simply that the linux
versions (window managers) are becoming more and more resource hungry
or has EMC2 changed to require a faster processor. If the former, then
the EMC2 Puppy distro should work ok for those with slower computers
shouldn't it? I'm still running BDI 2.20 on my P-350 and since it works
well I have not seen any reason to change, but I am waiting for the
new Puppy version (CoolCNC) to try out all of the new bells and
whistles in EMC2. I tried an older puppy EMC and it seemed to work
ok, but will wait for the newer version before I spend a lot of time
playing with it. I was going to try to build a testing version on it,
but it was originally compiled with gcc 2.95, and the guide I was
reading said that it would not compile
Bill
Joe Pfeiffer
2006-03-08 16:12:20 UTC
Permalink
The resource-intensive window managers (excuse me, "desktop
environments") do tend to saturate the CPU to the point that useful
work really does suffer -- something else that'll take lots of
interrupts (like step rates) is likely to have a great deal of
trouble.

Personally, I got very tired of gnome and kde competing to see who
could create the most Windows-like environment (if I wanted Windows,
I'd run Windows) years ago and switched back the FVWM window manager.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
Alex Joni
2006-03-08 16:30:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Scalione
Is the limiting factor on processor speed simply that the linux versions
(window managers) are becoming more and more resource hungry
yup, that's about it
Post by William Scalione
or has EMC2 changed to require a faster processor. If the former, then
the EMC2 Puppy distro should work ok for those with slower computers
shouldn't it? I'm still running BDI 2.20 on my P-350 and since it works
well I have not seen any reason to change, but I am waiting for the
new Puppy version (CoolCNC) to try out all of the new bells and whistles
in EMC2. I tried an older puppy EMC and it seemed to work
ok, but will wait for the newer version before I spend a lot of time
playing with it. I was going to try to build a testing version on it, but
it was originally compiled with gcc 2.95, and the guide I was reading said
that it would not compile
Some emc2 version from half an year ago might still be compileable on that
BDI 2.20,
but I think your reasoning to wait for something like the puppy with emc2 si
very sane.
Post by William Scalione
Bill
Regards,
Alex
William Scalione
2006-03-09 08:29:40 UTC
Permalink
OK I downloaded the latest EMC/puppy and installed it on a hard disk on
my old bomber of a computer (PII-350). It's hooked to my CNC router with
the following specs:

Gecko servo step and direction drives
X = 2000 steps/inch
Y = 4000 steps/inch
Z = 1600 steps/inch

I set the max acceleration at 15 and and the max velocity at 1.5.
It works real good at 90IPM with the base period set at .000030.
I could go up to 120IPM with my BDI 2.20, but I have not messed with
this too much and maybe I can boost that a little once I get more
familiar with EMC2. Great job cncuser for making this available to us
cheap guys who run old computers.

Now for my question,

I am trying to set up the homing switches to work, which are connected
to pin 12 on parallel port 0. I have messed around with Hal Configure,
but have not had much luck figuring it out (the help does not work) If I
watch the pin in Hal Configure it does change when the switches are
activated, so that much works, but I don't know how to connect the pin
to the signal to the axis etc. Also I set up the INI file so the axis
moves in the proper direction when I hit the home switch, it just never
stops when the switch actuates.

Thanks Bill

Jon Elson
2006-03-08 17:16:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Scalione
Is the limiting factor on processor speed simply that the linux
versions (window managers) are becoming more and more resource hungry
or has EMC2 changed to require a faster processor.
No. The window manager will take what time is available, and just run
slower.
What happens is when the PERIOD is set too low, there is NO CPU time left
for the non-real time processes, and they never make any progress. If the
real time task is still running when the next timer interrupt come in to
start
it again, it crashes the whole real time system. A non-graceful exit from a
condition from which there really is is no graceful recovery.

It may be that the HAL overhead does require a bit more CPU speed. Also,
there was a time-wasting bug that was found last weekend. So, if your
source
code is older than a week ago, you need to update.

this is not that farfetched today either.. although you'll have a
bit of a problem running X on that,
so if you're ok with text mode.. it might be something.

I am running a 100 MHz Pentium classic with 32 MB of RAM, and an old
version of EMC (20-Dec-1999). It definitely uses X windows, but not the
KDE window manager. I don't think you'd want to run one of the later
BDI distros in the default mode on such a machine. But, Paul includes
a selection of lower-footprint window managers on the BDI, which you
can select from with a custom install.


Jon
Ray Henry
2006-03-07 13:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi Joe

Yes the integrators handbook is dated. BC (before computers) I think by
now. That 133 install was mine. It worked fine with the older BDI-2.04
on a stepper system with 1k pulses per inch and 15 ipm but times have
changed and many of the packages used have grown. Stepper pulse
generation requires a lot more processor that servo systems.

BTW Yesterday I was getting 48k pps on an athalon64 with emc2 and the
new trajectory planner. And it felt like the processor was loafing.
This should not be taken as a modal frequency nor should the average
stepper system be expected to operate very well with it. Alex said that
he's seen 60k ppr. We'll need to do quite a bit of testing before we up
the expected frequency of stepper systems.

Ray
Post by Joe Korkin
Gene,
Thanks for tip Gene. I didn't find the 50us entry. However a closer re-read
of the Integrator Handbook in conjunction with your suggestion led to a
modification of the freqmod base PERIOD from 20us to 64us and resulted in a
successful startup.
So you are correct in pointing out that my 300Mhz/128Mb machine is
inadequate. I just hate to put a new pc in a "dirty" plasma cutting env.
Incidentally, I based my machine choice on the obviously outdated Integrator
Handbook... excerpted below.
"A.14 What is the minimum specifcation of the
computer required?
An old P133 with 16-32Mb RAM, a 500Mb IDE hard drive, and a CDROM
drive that can be booted from. If you want good performance from stepper
motors, a Pentium 233 or better is recommended."
Thanks again for the assistance Gene.
Joe
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] App fails to start -- locks up pc
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 03:41:06 -0500
Post by Joe Korkin
I recently installed emc/rtai using the BDI 4.38 iso on a clean system
-- nothing on the drive.
Executing generic.run results in the pc locking up.
The last message in the xterm indicates that freqmod loaded ok and
EMCIO is starting...
.Xsession log reveals the following;
shmem.cc 509: SHMEM: Can't take semaphore
I see there are SHMEM entries in the .nml file but they are not
documented anywhere. Do these need adjusting?
I thought that I could possibly save myself some pain by posting to
the group before crawling through source for the answer.
Thanks in advance for any guidance.
Joe
What sort of a machine is it? The minimum is considered to be a 400mhz
& 256MB of memory IIRC. The rtai runs as a seperate process, and its
default cycle time in an unmodified .ini file is 50 microseconds. You
might want to change that in the .ini file to 100 u-s just to test if
that is it. Its stated in seconds, so that would change the .000050
to .000100. But if that makes it run, then it would be a good indicator
to find a bit quicker a box to run emc on.
Post by Joe Korkin
Emc-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
--
Cheers, Gene
People having trouble with vz bouncing email to me should add the word
'online' between the 'verizon', and the dot which bypasses vz's
stupid bounce rules. I do use spamassassin too. :-)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language
that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live
webcast
and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory!
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_______________________________________________
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