[Emc-users] emc2 openProfibus

Discussion:

theman whosoldtheworld

2017-05-30 15:59:34 UTC

I discover that CC-Link is tipycal "open project" but for people who pay
... so i search for other industrial bus ... open-powerlink .. rt-space
works on kernel 4.4 (first step of test) ... now more difficult test ...
isol cpu on emc2 and isol cpu on powerlink ...
If any one have other experience about open-powerlink ... can write.

bkt

andy pugh

2017-05-30 23:58:06 UTC

Permalink

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
I discover that CC-Link is tipycal "open project" but for people who pay
... so i search for other industrial bus

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

theman whosoldtheworld

2017-05-31 09:10:32 UTC

Permalink

@ andy ... I'm new to use gmail ... if change subject on post ... the list
is breack?

bkt

Post by andy pugh

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
I discover that CC-Link is tipycal "open project" but for people who pay
... so i search for other industrial bus

Well....
At least one other project (STMBL) is using the Mesa Smart-Serial
protocol. (in addition to the Mesa cards, of course).
It's not any sort of industrial standard, but it does seem to be fairly Open.
--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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theman whosoldtheworld

2017-05-31 09:24:57 UTC

Permalink

So I cheked ... is it broke ...SO SORRY AT ALL FOR MY FIRST POST
SUBJECT. IS WRONG. OPENPOWERLINK INSTEAD OPENPROFIBUS

...any how thanks a lot for link about "justinbiber.hal"
...(note: i prefer Nirvana, Sonic Youth, Pearl Jam, Stone temple
Pilots ..etc etc ;) ) a good project. Perfect for build 18 point
calibration on rotary delta
and good for intercom on "mesa-card-robot-line". For shure I got to test it.

But the goal is to find the best industrial bus for communication
between devices and open source ... openpowerlink seems quite open,
master and slave side
(ethercat for example in royalty free + open on master side, but not
royalty free on slave side :( ).

Openpowerlink seems work quite well on user-space ... so I test it on
real-time-space (I hope i can realize a quite good latency with
isolcpu trick + openpowerlink)

bkt

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
@ andy ... I'm new to use gmail ... if change subject on post ... the list
is breack?
bkt

Post by andy pugh

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
I discover that CC-Link is tipycal "open project" but for people who pay
... so i search for other industrial bus

Nicklas Karlsson

2017-05-31 10:03:43 UTC

Permalink

For new devices maybe Profibus is not the best choice but it is however
very useful with support for profibus in Linuxcnc since there already are
plenty of these devices manufactured.

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
So I cheked ... is it broke ...SO SORRY AT ALL FOR MY FIRST POST
SUBJECT. IS WRONG. OPENPOWERLINK INSTEAD OPENPROFIBUS
...any how thanks a lot for link about "justinbiber.hal"
...(note: i prefer Nirvana, Sonic Youth, Pearl Jam, Stone temple
Pilots ..etc etc ;) ) a good project. Perfect for build 18 point
calibration on rotary delta
and good for intercom on "mesa-card-robot-line". For shure I got to test it.
But the goal is to find the best industrial bus for communication
between devices and open source ... openpowerlink seems quite open,
master and slave side
(ethercat for example in royalty free + open on master side, but not
royalty free on slave side :( ).
Openpowerlink seems work quite well on user-space ... so I test it on
real-time-space (I hope i can realize a quite good latency with
isolcpu trick + openpowerlink)
bkt

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
@ andy ... I'm new to use gmail ... if change subject on post ... the

list

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
is breack?
bkt

Post by andy pugh

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
I discover that CC-Link is tipycal "open project" but for people who

pay

Post by theman whosoldtheworld

Post by andy pugh

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
... so i search for other industrial bus

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theman whosoldtheworld

2017-05-31 10:47:37 UTC

Permalink

you are in right .... but my mystake is title/subject of list ... POWERLINK
instead profibus (i have the same opinion of your about profibus).

bkt

Post by Nicklas Karlsson
For new devices maybe Profibus is not the best choice but it is however
very useful with support for profibus in Linuxcnc since there already are
plenty of these devices manufactured.

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
@ andy ... I'm new to use gmail ... if change subject on post ... the

list

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
is breack?
bkt

Post by andy pugh

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
I discover that CC-Link is tipycal "open project" but for people who

pay

Post by theman whosoldtheworld

Post by andy pugh

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
... so i search for other industrial bus

Well....
At least one other project (STMBL) is using the Mesa Smart-Serial
protocol. (in addition to the Mesa cards, of course).
It's not any sort of industrial standard, but it does seem to be

fairly

Post by theman whosoldtheworld

Post by andy pugh
Open.
--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
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Chris Albertson

2017-05-31 23:44:42 UTC

Permalink

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
But the goal is to find the best industrial bus for communication
between devices and open source ... openpowerlink seems quite open,
master and slave side
(ethercat for example in

--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

Nicklas Karlsson

2017-06-01 05:45:28 UTC

Permalink

Post by Chris Albertson

I must have missed some of the requirements. But from the above Ethernet
seem like an obvious solution. It can push 1Gbit/second. Latency can be
an issue if you use TCP/IP over Ethernet but one can just use UDP/IP or
even Ethernet frames. And you can request users to use a dedicated
network. UDP over a dedicated Gigabit network has just nanoseconds of
latency.. Basically the bit rate times the length of the datagram.
People have beaten this be packing the most time sensitive data in there
front of the packet.
If you are taking about transferring data in a machine shop one other thing
is important and Ethernet does this too -- Galvanic isolation. Ethernet
uses transformers on each end of the line and therefore has very good
common mode rejection. But not trying the grounds together is a big
advantage in an industrial setting.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

Yes Ethernet is good, in particularly for communication in between machine there where are no servo real time demand. For real time communication within machine others might be a better choice because they ware simpler and cheaper.

Chris Albertson

2017-06-01 06:32:40 UTC

Permalink

If Ethernet is "complex" then PowerLink is "very complex" as it is a few
layers over top of Ethernet.

Is there a list of requirements some place? What are the end points,
processes that run on a CPU of some kind.

I've been doing this kind of work for ages but you can't select anything
without a detailed set of requirements

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 10:45 PM, Nicklas Karlsson <

Post by Nicklas Karlsson
Yes Ethernet is good, in particularly for communication in between machine
there where are no servo real time demand. For real time communication
within machine others might be a better choice because they ware simpler
and cheaper.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

Nicklas Karlsson

2017-06-01 07:04:32 UTC

Permalink

Post by Chris Albertson
If Ethernet is "complex" then PowerLink is "very complex" as it is a few
layers over top of Ethernet.
Is there a list of requirements some place? What are the end points,
processes that run on a CPU of some kind.
I've been doing this kind of work for ages but you can't select anything
without a detailed set of requirements

It is rather simple to send or receive via UDP/IP or TCP/IP for example via Ethernet. UDP/IP is one way packets. TCP/IP send acknowledge which add bandwidth requirement in the opposite direction. To make sure packets within a particular time period may however be harder.

Then sending point to point over an ordinary serial channel like UART or SPI data usually arrive practically instantly and there are no collisions. UART or SPI is also very cheap. Software for simple point to point may also be very simple. A bus have huge advantages then it come to number of nodes but there may be collisions.

Even though collisions are a small problem to make it work perfect during periodic communication may be surprisingly hard while for a simple serial channel it is no problem at all.

Regards Nicklas Karlsson

Chris Albertson

2017-06-01 17:32:27 UTC

Permalink

Modern Ethernet does not have a collision problem. It uses a switched
topology. All of the cables are point to point. One end is on your device
the other is on a switch. The switch has enough performance and bandwidth
to drive all cables at full wire speed.

The switch adds very little latency. Modern switches (if they can) do not
buffer the entire Ethernet packet as the older first generation switches
did. They now will read the packet header and pick off the "to" address
then cut the bits over to the correct outbound cable.

For sending data to 18 different motors, Ethernet would work fine, Use a
24 port switch.

I have a small robot arm that is controlled by 7 channels of PWM. I use a
single chip device that has 16 PWM output pins and uses i2C input. Cost is
under $5 It would be easy to use two of these chips but the resolution is
poor I can control the PWM duty cycle only to about one part in a
thousand. The over the bus protocol is defined by the chip maker and I
have no choice but to use that.

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 12:04 AM, Nicklas Karlsson <

Post by Nicklas Karlsson

It is rather simple to send or receive via UDP/IP or TCP/IP for example
via Ethernet. UDP/IP is one way packets. TCP/IP send acknowledge which add
bandwidth requirement in the opposite direction. To make sure packets
within a particular time period may however be harder.
Then sending point to point over an ordinary serial channel like UART or
SPI data usually arrive practically instantly and there are no collisions.
UART or SPI is also very cheap. Software for simple point to point may also
be very simple. A bus have huge advantages then it come to number of nodes
but there may be collisions.
Even though collisions are a small problem to make it work perfect during
periodic communication may be surprisingly hard while for a simple serial
channel it is no problem at all.
Regards Nicklas Karlsson
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

Nicklas Karlsson

2017-06-01 18:25:32 UTC

Permalink

Right now I design away from Ethernet within machine because with my computer and switches and it does not work perfect. Whatever the reason is I simply can't do anything about it.

On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:32:27 -0700

Post by Chris Albertson
Modern Ethernet does not have a collision problem. It uses a switched
topology. All of the cables are point to point. One end is on your device
the other is on a switch. The switch has enough performance and bandwidth
to drive all cables at full wire speed.
The switch adds very little latency. Modern switches (if they can) do not
buffer the entire Ethernet packet as the older first generation switches
did. They now will read the packet header and pick off the "to" address
then cut the bits over to the correct outbound cable.
For sending data to 18 different motors, Ethernet would work fine, Use a
24 port switch.
I have a small robot arm that is controlled by 7 channels of PWM. I use a
single chip device that has 16 PWM output pins and uses i2C input. Cost is
under $5 It would be easy to use two of these chips but the resolution is
poor I can control the PWM duty cycle only to about one part in a
thousand. The over the bus protocol is defined by the chip maker and I
have no choice but to use that.
On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 12:04 AM, Nicklas Karlsson <

Post by Nicklas Karlsson

It is rather simple to send or receive via UDP/IP or TCP/IP for example
via Ethernet. UDP/IP is one way packets. TCP/IP send acknowledge which add
bandwidth requirement in the opposite direction. To make sure packets
within a particular time period may however be harder.
Then sending point to point over an ordinary serial channel like UART or
SPI data usually arrive practically instantly and there are no collisions.
UART or SPI is also very cheap. Software for simple point to point may also
be very simple. A bus have huge advantages then it come to number of nodes
but there may be collisions.
Even though collisions are a small problem to make it work perfect during
periodic communication may be surprisingly hard while for a simple serial
channel it is no problem at all.
Regards Nicklas Karlsson
------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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theman whosoldtheworld

2017-06-01 07:31:33 UTC

Permalink

nothing missed ... only not know the STMBL project .... it seems quite
simple obtain a calculated angle of joint for send the data to my program
for 18 point delta calibration, so I find these project real interesting. Apart
from that, I'm investigating the possibility of having open industrial
buses with high transmission capacity, to connect multiple Lcnc machines
together but also other industrial devices. OpenPowerlink & openSafety
seems quite good (not test in these time openlink realtime application ...
nex week I think) ... but I'll be happy to try other ways. In addition to
all the info I'm getting useful.

Thank you all.

bkt

Post by Chris Albertson

Nicklas Karlsson

2017-06-01 07:57:49 UTC

Permalink

Yes openPowerlink might be a really good choice. I implemented CANopen over UDP for configuration a few weeks ago and openPowerlink is adapted from CANopen.

The SDO communication from CANopen work really well for configuration and I guess it should also work well for between machine communication. SDO communication is rather simple to implement.

Post by theman whosoldtheworld
nothing missed ... only not know the STMBL project .... it seems quite
simple obtain a calculated angle of joint for send the data to my program
for 18 point delta calibration, so I find these project real interesting. Apart
from that, I'm investigating the possibility of having open industrial
buses with high transmission capacity, to connect multiple Lcnc machines
together but also other industrial devices. OpenPowerlink & openSafety
seems quite good (not test in these time openlink realtime application ...
nex week I think) ... but I'll be happy to try other ways. In addition to
all the info I'm getting useful.
Thank you all.
bkt

Post by Chris Albertson

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