[Emc-users] Multi-meter recommendations

Discussion:

David Berndt

2017-07-10 04:07:02 UTC

Apologies, this might be slightly OT, but I imagine we all use a
Multi-meter a few times a month in our EMC related work.

It seems my Micronta 22-174b has given up on life, or has suffered a brain
injury at the very least. After not using the meter for about 3 weeks I
dusted it off and was double checking some wiring for a 24v servo brake,
everything went fine, there was no funny event, no smoke, no fire, not
even any brimstone, but the meter didn't read 24v on the 24v line, more
like 19v, and I notice the ohm mode reads 32ohms all the time, even when
it should be displaying open circuit.

Nothing internally seems amiss, no obviously blown traces, componenents,
no burnt smell. Board says 1992, I guess 25 years is enough, maybe it's
time to consider a new unit.

Soooo... Anyone have any recommendations for a hobbyist level meter.

Dave

Bruce Layne

2017-07-10 04:56:42 UTC

Permalink

First, I'd try replacing the battery in your Radio Shack DMM if you
haven't already. But I'd immediately start looking for a replacement.
I'm not a test equipment snob, but you need to trust your test
equipment. If you aren't sure if you're testing your circuit or testing
your meter, the job becomes much more difficult. Even as a larval geek
in high school in the mid 1970s, I had a Beckman DMM and wouldn't use a
Micronta meter if someone gave it to me.

I think the best value in a quality DMM is a Chinese Fluke. Fluke has a
line of meters that are manufactured in China and ostensibly intended
for the Chinese market. The owner's manuals are in Chinese (it's a
digital multimeter and we pretty much know how to use those, although
there are English versions of the manual online) and the warranty isn't
valid in the US, but it's genuine Fluke quality at half the price or
less. Here's an example at the lower end, but they have larger and more
full featured meters in their Chinese line as well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GENUINE-FLUKE-101-portable-handheld-digital-multimeter-F101-mini-meter-US-SELLER-/182497154039
(if there's a problem with the link, search eBay for 182497154039)

When I bought my Chinese Fluke meter for my toolbox, they could only be
purchased from Chinese sellers, but now they're available from US
sellers so you aren't waiting a month for the slow boat from China.

AvE had a couple of videos extolling the virtues and value of the
Chinese Fluke meters.

Of course, wherever there's a market, some Asian ripoffs will occur, so
do try to get reasonable assurances, generally via seller feedback, that
you're getting a genuine Chinese Fluke instead of a cheap Chinese copy
of a genuine Chinese Fluke.

Post by David Berndt
Apologies, this might be slightly OT, but I imagine we all use a
Multi-meter a few times a month in our EMC related work.
It seems my Micronta 22-174b has given up on life, or has suffered a
brain injury at the very least. After not using the meter for about 3
weeks I dusted it off and was double checking some wiring for a 24v
servo brake, everything went fine, there was no funny event, no smoke,
no fire, not even any brimstone, but the meter didn't read 24v on the
24v line, more like 19v, and I notice the ohm mode reads 32ohms all
the time, even when it should be displaying open circuit.
Nothing internally seems amiss, no obviously blown traces,
componenents, no burnt smell. Board says 1992, I guess 25 years is
enough, maybe it's time to consider a new unit.
Soooo... Anyone have any recommendations for a hobbyist level meter.
Dave

Marcus Bowman

2017-07-10 06:16:42 UTC

Permalink

I have no experience of the modern Chinese version, but love my old Fluke 11. It is quite basic, in terms of its functions, but robust as a brick.

Fluke has a line of meters that are manufactured in China and ostensibly intended for the Chinese market. The owner's manuals are in Chinese (it's a digital multimeter and we pretty much know how to use those, although there are English versions of the manual online) and the warranty isn't valid in the US, but it's genuine Fluke quality at half the price or less. Here's an example at the lower end, but they have larger and more full featured meters in their Chinese line as well.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GENUINE-FLUKE-101-portable-handheld-digital-multimeter-F101-mini-meter-US-SELLER-/182497154039
(if there's a problem with the link, search eBay for 182497154039)
When I bought my Chinese Fluke meter for my toolbox, they could only be purchased from Chinese sellers, but now they're available from US sellers so you aren't waiting a month for the slow boat from China.
AvE had a couple of videos extolling the virtues and value of the Chinese Fluke meters.
http://youtu.be/XDm5BfRrAsg
http://youtu.be/rJm9iCha-jM
Of course, wherever there's a market, some Asian ripoffs will occur, so do try to get reasonable assurances, generally via seller feedback, that you're getting a genuine Chinese Fluke instead of a cheap Chinese copy of a genuine Chinese Fluke.

I have made a couple of Chinese kits for meters. Great fun, especially since they come with no instructions even for assembly. Kind of a Chinese puzzle. Accuracy is reasonable on the basic functions.
And I use separate home-built meters for capacitance and inductance.

Marcus

Apologies, this might be slightly OT, but I imagine we all use a Multi-meter a few times a month in our EMC related work.
It seems my Micronta 22-174b has given up on life, or has suffered a brain injury at the very least. After not using the meter for about 3 weeks I dusted it off and was double checking some wiring for a 24v servo brake, everything went fine, there was no funny event, no smoke, no fire, not even any brimstone, but the meter didn't read 24v on the 24v line, more like 19v, and I notice the ohm mode reads 32ohms all the time, even when it should be displaying open circuit.
Nothing internally seems amiss, no obviously blown traces, componenents, no burnt smell. Board says 1992, I guess 25 years is enough, maybe it's time to consider a new unit.
Soooo... Anyone have any recommendations for a hobbyist level meter.
Dave

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andy pugh

2017-07-10 08:53:52 UTC

Permalink

Post by Bruce Layne
I think the best value in a quality DMM is a Chinese Fluke.

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

Christopher

2017-07-11 00:16:09 UTC

Permalink

What is also great about Fluke products is that you can get just about every spare part you could want and can actually get them calibrated if need be. I have a really nice Fluke 87 that I bought used. It was pretty beat up when I got it, but I was able to purchase all the parts I needed to get it working / looking just about new.

N. C. Perry

Post by andy pugh

Post by Bruce Layne
I think the best value in a quality DMM is a Chinese Fluke.

I am happy with mine (12E+) bought soon after seeing that AvE video.
I have also had good service from a Uni-T
http://www.uni-trend.com/Productslist_1106_1106_1106_1106.html
But that has become a little floppy in the lead-sockets, and also has
the weird feature of over-estimating voltages if the internal battery
is low (so, if it is showing a low battery warning, you can't trust
the voltages. They end up doubled, just before it dies). Swapping the
battery is awkward too, you need to dismantle the meter, there isn't a
battery compartment as such.
However, it does have some measurments (capacitance, inductance,
frequency) missing from the Fluke.
--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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dave

2017-07-13 17:57:11 UTC

Permalink

Post by Christopher
What is also great about Fluke products is that you can get just about every spare part you could want and can actually get them calibrated if need be. I have a really nice Fluke 87 that I bought used. It was pretty beat up when I got it, but I was able to purchase all the parts I needed to get it working / looking just about new.
N. C. Perry

Post by andy pugh

Post by Bruce Layne
I think the best value in a quality DMM is a Chinese Fluke.

Bought a 79 25 years ago and an 85 not too many years ago. Both are
still chugging along.
Also have had a few other fluke products. KV-divider, differential VM
and HV power supply.

Dave

Post by Christopher
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Nicklas Karlsson

2017-07-13 19:48:02 UTC

Permalink

Fluke work great but are a little bit expensive. Unless accuracy is important I guess any would do.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 10:57:11 -0700

Post by dave

Post by andy pugh

Post by Bruce Layne
I think the best value in a quality DMM is a Chinese Fluke.

Bought a 79 25 years ago and an 85 not too many years ago. Both are
still chugging along.
Also have had a few other fluke products. KV-divider, differential VM
and HV power supply.
Dave

--
Nicklas Karlsson <***@gmail.com>

John Kasunich

2017-07-14 15:26:24 UTC

Permalink

Post by Nicklas Karlsson
Fluke work great but are a little bit expensive. Unless accuracy is important I guess any would do.

Fluke is indeed expensive. However, I would change the last part to "Unless _safety_ is important I guess any would do".

Cheap imported meters are often as accurate as brand-name meters costing 5-10 times as much. But one of the differences is the input protection. What happens if you accidently hook your meter probes across line voltage when it is set to measure current?

Most meters, even cheap ones, have a fuse that will blow in that case. If you accidentally tried to measure a 24V power supply or even a 120V AC line while set for current, you'll probably be fine. If you accidentally tried to measure a 480V line with a Fluke, you'll still be fine - the fuse in a Fluke is rated 600V and has a high interrupting current rating. But the fuse in a cheap knock-off meter can't interrupt 480V fault current and is likely to explode in your hand trying.

I have a Fluke and a cheap meter. On the bench when I'm working with low voltage I'll use whichever one is handy. Both are accurate, and the cheap one actually has a few features that are nicer then my (older) Fluke.

But for anything higher than 120V, I only use the Fluke.

--
John Kasunich
***@fastmail.fm

dave

2017-07-15 01:55:04 UTC

Permalink

Post by John Kasunich

Post by Nicklas Karlsson
Fluke work great but are a little bit expensive. Unless accuracy is important I guess any would do.

Fluke is indeed expensive. However, I would change the last part to "Unless _safety_ is important I guess any would do".
Cheap imported meters are often as accurate as brand-name meters costing 5-10 times as much. But one of the differences is the input protection. What happens if you accidently hook your meter probes across line voltage when it is set to measure current?
Most meters, even cheap ones, have a fuse that will blow in that case. If you accidentally tried to measure a 24V power supply or even a 120V AC line while set for current, you'll probably be fine. If you accidentally tried to measure a 480V line with a Fluke, you'll still be fine - the fuse in a Fluke is rated 600V and has a high interrupting current rating. But the fuse in a cheap knock-off meter can't interrupt 480V fault current and is likely to explode in your hand trying.
I have a Fluke and a cheap meter. On the bench when I'm working with low voltage I'll use whichever one is handy. Both are accurate, and the cheap one actually has a few features that are nicer then my (older) Fluke.
But for anything higher than 120V, I only use the Fluke.

John,
Nicely said!

Dave

Dave Cole

2017-07-16 17:06:41 UTC

Permalink

I frequently work on AC and DC industrial drives. Measuring 480 VAC
is common and sometimes the DC bus on a 480 Volt input drive as well. I
decided to "retire" two of my older Flukes to lesser duties and stick
with the new one rated at 1000 volts just for the reasons you mentioned.

I don't want a meter flashing over internally. Age degrades insulation
and it just isn't worth the risk.

I have a few other meters which are cheap Chinese knock offs but I keep
those around for 240 VAC and below. I would not use one at 480VAC
even though they scale to 600 VAC.

If you can afford to work on 480 VAC systems, you can afford a high
quality meter.
Also, keep an eye on the meter leads. If they start looking worn,
replace them.

I've got life insurance, but I don't want to use it.

Dave

Post by John Kasunich

Post by Nicklas Karlsson
Fluke work great but are a little bit expensive. Unless accuracy is important I guess any would do.

Fluke is indeed expensive. However, I would change the last part to "Unless _safety_ is important I guess any would do".
Cheap imported meters are often as accurate as brand-name meters costing 5-10 times as much. But one of the differences is the input protection. What happens if you accidently hook your meter probes across line voltage when it is set to measure current?
Most meters, even cheap ones, have a fuse that will blow in that case. If you accidentally tried to measure a 24V power supply or even a 120V AC line while set for current, you'll probably be fine. If you accidentally tried to measure a 480V line with a Fluke, you'll still be fine - the fuse in a Fluke is rated 600V and has a high interrupting current rating. But the fuse in a cheap knock-off meter can't interrupt 480V fault current and is likely to explode in your hand trying.
I have a Fluke and a cheap meter. On the bench when I'm working with low voltage I'll use whichever one is handy. Both are accurate, and the cheap one actually has a few features that are nicer then my (older) Fluke.
But for anything higher than 120V, I only use the Fluke.

Nicklas Karlsson

2017-07-16 18:02:49 UTC

Permalink

Post by Dave Cole
...
decided to "retire" two of my older Flukes to lesser duties and stick
with the new one rated at 1000 volts just for the reasons you mentioned.
...
If you can afford to work on 480 VAC systems, you can afford a high
quality meter.

There certainly is a big difference in money between real power and small electronic circuits.

Chris Albertson

2017-07-16 22:40:48 UTC

Permalink

I work on vacuum tube equipment sometimes. AC and DC voltages like 350 to
550 are common there. For safety the only thing that really works is to
turn off the equipment, bleed of the power supply voltage to zero (usually
there is a bleeder resister permanently installed so waiting a minute of so
after removing power works.)

Then I hook up the meters to the test points and power up the equipment.
Yes plurals. Using several meters saves time. Sometimes 4 or 5 meters.
The free meters from Harbor freight come in handy for this. Safety is
assured as I never handle the meter or the test leads while powered at high
voltage. Having so many cheap meters saves me from having to poke around
inside the guts of a device that has lethal voltage inside.

For portable, diagnostics, yes get the fluke meter with the rubber "boot"
and pay for the US made Pomona test leads

I frequently work on AC and DC industrial drives. Measuring 480 VAC is
common and sometimes the DC bus on a 480 Volt input drive as well. I
decided to "retire" two of my older Flukes to lesser duties and stick with
the new one rated at 1000 volts just for the reasons you mentioned.
I don't want a meter flashing over internally. Age degrades insulation
and it just isn't worth the risk.
I have a few other meters which are cheap Chinese knock offs but I keep
those around for 240 VAC and below. I would not use one at 480VAC even
though they scale to 600 VAC.
If you can afford to work on 480 VAC systems, you can afford a high
quality meter.
Also, keep an eye on the meter leads. If they start looking worn,
replace them.
I've got life insurance, but I don't want to use it.
Dave

Post by John Kasunich

Post by Nicklas Karlsson
Fluke work great but are a little bit expensive. Unless accuracy is
important I guess any would do.

Fluke is indeed expensive. However, I would change the last part to
"Unless _safety_ is important I guess any would do".
Cheap imported meters are often as accurate as brand-name meters costing
5-10 times as much. But one of the differences is the input protection.
What happens if you accidently hook your meter probes across line voltage
when it is set to measure current?
Most meters, even cheap ones, have a fuse that will blow in that case.
If you accidentally tried to measure a 24V power supply or even a 120V AC
line while set for current, you'll probably be fine. If you accidentally
tried to measure a 480V line with a Fluke, you'll still be fine - the fuse
in a Fluke is rated 600V and has a high interrupting current rating. But
the fuse in a cheap knock-off meter can't interrupt 480V fault current and
is likely to explode in your hand trying.
I have a Fluke and a cheap meter. On the bench when I'm working with low
voltage I'll use whichever one is handy. Both are accurate, and the cheap
one actually has a few features that are nicer then my (older) Fluke.
But for anything higher than 120V, I only use the Fluke.

------------------------------------------------------------
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Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

Chris Albertson

2017-07-15 16:47:03 UTC

Permalink

I agree about Fluke build quality. I have a couple older Fluke portable
DMMs. They drift out of Cailbration and typically you need to adjust
serval pots with a mini-screwdriver. My HP calibrates with push buttons
and no disassembly is required.

Here is an example, this meter is really common and there are always a few
on eBay every day
www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Hewlett-Packard-3478A
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Hewlett-Packard-3478A-Digital-Multimeter-/182654422781?epid=5003305690&hash=item2a870d4efd:g:8dsAAOSw3YJZXpJV>

Post by Christopher
What is also great about Fluke products is that you can get just about
every spare part you could want and can actually get them calibrated if
need be. I have a really nice Fluke 87 that I bought used. It was pretty
beat up when I got it, but I was able to purchase all the parts I needed to
get it working / looking just about new.
N. C. Perry

Post by andy pugh

Post by Bruce Layne
I think the best value in a quality DMM is a Chinese Fluke.

------------------

Post by andy pugh
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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Redondo Beach, California

Nicklas Karlsson

2017-07-15 16:54:50 UTC

Permalink

Thes HP bench multimeters I think have really good accuracy, they do not run away but are a little bit harder to move.

On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 09:47:03 -0700

Post by Chris Albertson
I agree about Fluke build quality. I have a couple older Fluke portable
DMMs. They drift out of Cailbration and typically you need to adjust
serval pots with a mini-screwdriver. My HP calibrates with push buttons
and no disassembly is required.
Here is an example, this meter is really common and there are always a few
on eBay every day
www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Hewlett-Packard-3478A
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Hewlett-Packard-3478A-Digital-Multimeter-/182654422781?epid=5003305690&hash=item2a870d4efd:g:8dsAAOSw3YJZXpJV>

Post by Christopher
What is also great about Fluke products is that you can get just about
every spare part you could want and can actually get them calibrated if
need be. I have a really nice Fluke 87 that I bought used. It was pretty
beat up when I got it, but I was able to purchase all the parts I needed to
get it working / looking just about new.
N. C. Perry

Post by andy pugh

Post by Bruce Layne
I think the best value in a quality DMM is a Chinese Fluke.

------------------

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Redondo Beach, California
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Danny Miller

2017-07-15 18:16:15 UTC

Permalink

Best deals of out of grey market China sites:

http://www.dx.com/s/fluke?cateId=0&cateName=All%20Categories

Fluke cut China a deal. 17B+ is over $300 in US. But China will sell
you one of their discounts- same meter- for $130.

It IS a genuine Fluke. Same product. Only confusion is, on eBay,
they're selling cheap VC97 meters spamming the keyword "fluke" in the
title. But it obviously isn't a Fluke.

Danny

Post by Nicklas Karlsson
Thes HP bench multimeters I think have really good accuracy, they do not run away but are a little bit harder to move.
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 09:47:03 -0700

Post by Christopher
What is also great about Fluke products is that you can get just about
every spare part you could want and can actually get them calibrated if
need be. I have a really nice Fluke 87 that I bought used. It was pretty
beat up when I got it, but I was able to purchase all the parts I needed to
get it working / looking just about new.
N. C. Perry

Post by andy pugh

Post by Bruce Layne
I think the best value in a quality DMM is a Chinese Fluke.

------------------

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Andrew

2017-07-15 19:05:06 UTC

Permalink

Post by Danny Miller
http://www.dx.com/s/fluke?cateId=0&cateName=All%20Categories
Fluke cut China a deal. 17B+ is over $300 in US. But China will sell you
one of their discounts- same meter- for $130.
It IS a genuine Fluke. Same product. Only confusion is, on eBay, they're
selling cheap VC97 meters spamming the keyword "fluke" in the title. But
it obviously isn't a Fluke.

DX is a pretty expensive these days.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231294560152 As low as $104 from China. No fake?

Chris Albertson

2017-07-15 20:08:07 UTC

Permalink

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Nicklas Karlsson <

Post by Nicklas Karlsson
Thes HP bench multimeters I think have really good accuracy, they do not
run away but are a little bit harder to move.

Yes, they are for use on the bench. You need a portable one for field
work. But you need at least TWO meters or you never know if the only one
you own is even close to correct.

You have to think of the old saying "A man with a watch knows what time it
is. A man with two watches is never sure."

--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

Chris Albertson

2017-07-15 16:36:38 UTC

Permalink

First off you need at least TWO meters. How else can you know if your
meter works and gives correct readings unless it agrees with some other
meter?

Next for this kind of work you don't need a lot of precision. You just
need to see if there is "about 24V" on the power lines and even 10%
accuracy is good enough for simple diagnostics. If you own several
meters yo don't even cars about reliability so much, if one fails you still
have a a couple more.

So, It's OK to use those free meters that Harbor Freight gives you when
you make a$10 purchase. They are better low end but I have at lest four of
them and I test their calibration and they are not bad. The build
nullity is nothing compared to my Fluke meter.

I also just bought a used HP meter. It has 6 digits and is very easy to
calibrate and has A feature that most hand held meters lack: It can do
4-wire resistance measurements so that the resisters of the test leads is
accounted for. This allows you to measure way down to mili-Ohms. You
can use this to test transformers or to measure the resistance of a few
feet of wire. These are discontinued so the only source for is eBay.
www.keysight.com/...34401A...
<http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000001295%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-34401A/digital-multimeter-6-digit?cc=US&lc=eng>

SO for basic debugging I'd suggest at least one "good" meter and s few
backups (which are either way or free) But for general design some more
advanced debugging you have to have an oscilloscope. New digital scope
are SO MUCH BETTER then used ones that I can not longer recommend buying
used unless budget is real tight

For your one god meter it can be a bench type, use HP DMMs is a great
value. Used Fake is good also. These are build so well that even used
ones will last "forever" and calibrated

Calibration is the next issue. It does no good to have 3 digits in the
display to the meter reader 20% "off". A New Fluke meter is hold factory
calibration for a year or two. Voltage standards suitable for meter
calibration are available on eBay at all different price points starting at
$5 and doing way up.

All user manuals are available on-line for all name brand meters, even the
free Harbor Freight ones. Download and read there BEFORE you buy

Post by David Berndt
Apologies, this might be slightly OT, but I imagine we all use a
Multi-meter a few times a month in our EMC related work.
It seems my Micronta 22-174b has given up on life, or has suffered a brain
injury at the very least. After not using the meter for about 3 weeks I
dusted it off and was double checking some wiring for a 24v servo brake,
everything went fine, there was no funny event, no smoke, no fire, not even
any brimstone, but the meter didn't read 24v on the 24v line, more like
19v, and I notice the ohm mode reads 32ohms all the time, even when it
should be displaying open circuit.
Nothing internally seems amiss, no obviously blown traces, componenents,
no burnt smell. Board says 1992, I guess 25 years is enough, maybe it's
time to consider a new unit.
Soooo... Anyone have any recommendations for a hobbyist level meter.
Dave
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Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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